[QUOTE=supergoose]
Uh, I don’t know if this is a whoosh, but if not, the way I see it, anything that the human imagination can come up with has been done at some point*. And probably more than once.
[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, but thrown right up there with something common like homosexuality, it seems kind of strange. Like saying “left-handedness, ambidextrousness, and voluntary amputation.”
Ahhh. Okay, that makes sense. Consider me no longer freaked out.
I posted a thread about this earlier–I think it’s pretty cool and not disgusting at all.
[QUOTE=neutron star]
Well, yeah, but thrown right up there with something common like homosexuality, it seems kind of strange. Like saying “left-handedness, ambidextrousness, and voluntary amputation.”
[/QUOTE]
Isn’t gender reassignment surgery a form of voluntary amputation? There are people with Body integrity identity disorder who know that they are not supposed to have two feet or 10 fingers and are positive that they were born into the wrong body, just as transgendered individuals know that they were not supposed to have been born into the gender they externally exhibit. Some have even resorted to self amputation or destruction of the “alien” body part so that it must be amputated.
So if a person is absolutely convinced that they should not have been born with two legs and have tried living as an amputee by tying the offending limb in a bent position and using crutches and wheelchairs, they are considered in need of psychiatric help. But if someone is absolutely convinced that they were not supposed to be born a man (or woman) and has tried living as one by wearing the gender specific clothing and functioning as that other gender, then we must accept their surgical changes?
I’m not being snarky or an a-hole here. If someone wants to chop off their own willy or turn their boobs into bookends, I don’t care. I hope this couple has a healthy kid and that the mother/father (how the hell do you label that one?) is able to successfully complete the process in his own time. But I want to know what makes one form of body dismorphia more acceptable than another?
[QUOTE=Otto]
your squicking is pretty fucking insulting
[/QUOTE]
What do you have against skull-sex? :mad: :eek:
[QUOTE=Slypork]
Isn’t gender reassignment surgery a form of voluntary amputation? There are people with Body integrity identity disorder who know that they are not supposed to have two feet or 10 fingers and are positive that they were born into the wrong body, just as transgendered individuals know that they were not supposed to have been born into the gender they externally exhibit. Some have even resorted to self amputation or destruction of the “alien” body part so that it must be amputated.
So if a person is absolutely convinced that they should not have been born with two legs and have tried living as an amputee by tying the offending limb in a bent position and using crutches and wheelchairs, they are considered in need of psychiatric help. But if someone is absolutely convinced that they were not supposed to be born a man (or woman) and has tried living as one by wearing the gender specific clothing and functioning as that other gender, then we must accept their surgical changes?
I’m not being snarky or an a-hole here. If someone wants to chop off their own willy or turn their boobs into bookends, I don’t care. I hope this couple has a healthy kid and that the mother/father (how the hell do you label that one?) is able to successfully complete the process in his own time. But I want to know what makes one form of body dismorphia more acceptable than another?
[/QUOTE]
I’m with you, and I’m about to take a whole pile of unwarranted flamage for saying this, but as far as I can determine the only thing that makes gender-related body dismorphia (such as that displayed by the pregnant person in the OP) fall into the category of “not-mental-illness” is the extent to which it’s entangled with (for lack of a better term) gay culture and society and the gay rights movement as a whole. In other words, it’s an accepted part of a politically active and outspoken minority.
Although, for the record, in this particular instance I’m less squicked out by this person’s pregnancy and more compelled to roll my eyes at him. I roll my eyes purely on the basis that the story in the OP made me immediately think “So you identify with male right up until the moment you want something only you being female can give you? To hell with you then!” I don’t give a red rat’s ass whether the pregnant person identifies as male, female or dragon. What chapped my ass was the failure to stick to his/her convictions when getting what he/she wanted involved abandoning them. The pregnant person was “male” right up until the most convenient way to have a baby* was to get pregnant herself - and now, while still claiming to be male, wants to have a baby? Oh, please. That’s just hypocrasy. That’s why I’m irked by the couple in the OP.
I’m mortally certain that Otto will come storming along any second now to refer me any number of creatively perjorative terms for having the audacity to imply that there are areas of human sexuality that impinge upon mental illness rather than Og-given personal freedom to live one’s life as one chooses. Fortunately for me, today I’m wearing my asbestos underoos.
*Options included, but not limited to: adoption, fostering, fertility treatments of different sorts for the wife, (if said treatments fail) surrogacy, etc. If I can think of four different options for parenthood in less than 5 seconds, there were options available that did not involve the pregnant person abandoning her conviction she was rightfully male. Granted, they were almost certainly less convenient options, but options existed.
Meh, it sounds more just like something you’d read in “News of the Weird.” And yeah, it is weird-but not necessarily in a bad way. And hell, it’s almost like the guy’s a seahorse, if you thijnk about it.
[QUOTE=TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW]
This is gross and horrible on many levels, and these people are mentally ill.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Otto]
What do you care? It’s not like they’re black.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, SNAP.
[QUOTE=Aangelica]
I roll my eyes purely on the basis that the story in the OP made me immediately think “So you identify with male right up until the moment you want something only you being female can give you? To hell with you then!”
[/quote]
You have now had time to think more carefully about your immediate knee-jerk reaction. Are you able to look past it and do a more critical examination both of the situation and your knee-jerk reaction to it? Or do you plan to stick with your knee-jerk regardless of anything else?
How you come up with the notion that this was somehow “convenient” for this man is flabbergasting. Not only did he go through the changes caused from withdrawing from his hormone treatments, he and his wife were subjected to repeated humiliation and abuse by doctors and family members. His first pregnancy (ectopic triplets) had to be surgically terminated and his own brother’s response was to heave a sigh of relief that the “monsters” weren’t going to be born.
What if, rather than carrying the fetus himself, there had been a way to transplant his reproductive organs into his wife. Would that still be “hypocrasy” (sic) ?
First, you don’t know that these options weren’t all considered by this couple. Second, Thomas has not “abandoned his conviction” that he is male. He continues to identify as male, he continues to present as male, when the baby is born he will be the baby’s father and his wife will be the mother. Your use of the female pronoun to refer to this man is prejudiced and rude.
[QUOTE=Aangelica]
Although, for the record, in this particular instance I’m less squicked out by this person’s pregnancy and more compelled to roll my eyes at him. I roll my eyes purely on the basis that the story in the OP made me immediately think “So you identify with male right up until the moment you want something only you being female can give you? To hell with you then!” I don’t give a red rat’s ass whether the pregnant person identifies as male, female or dragon. What chapped my ass was the failure to stick to his/her convictions when getting what he/she wanted involved abandoning them. The pregnant person was “male” right up until the most convenient way to have a baby* was to get pregnant herself - and now, while still claiming to be male, wants to have a baby? Oh, please. That’s just hypocrasy. That’s why I’m irked by the couple in the OP.
[/QUOTE]
Hypocrisy?! That would be a halfway appropriate word if being male were some kind of moral stance, maybe - a “conviction,” as you say. It’s not; it’s a state of being, a personality, a fact.
What we have here is a fellow who has a) a mind and personality that informs him of certain things; b) a body that is capable of certain things. Now, I’m sure you’d agree that being male is not incompatible with wanting to have a child. I’m sure that this couple sat down, gave long and hard consideration to their options, and decided that this was the best way to go about it.
Contrary to what you say, this gentleman has not abandoned his “conviction” that he is a man. He says so right in the article. You describe being pregnant as something that “only being female can get you,” but if we’re working in the area in which anatomy and gender identity cannot be assimilated to one another, which is the case, it’s more apposite to say that pregnancy is something that only having a uterus and ovaries can get you – and he has them.
One difference is that being a man or a woman is not a disability. Trans people do not identify, nor are trying to physically transition into, someone who is impaired, but someone who is like 50% of the human species.
My initial reaction was that this was grotesque. But on thinking it over, I don’t see any good reason to find it upsetting, so long as there are no medical issues with the child.
[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
One difference is that being a man or a woman is not a disability. Trans people do not identify, nor are trying to physically transition into, someone who is impaired, but someone who is like 50% of the human species.
[/QUOTE]
But to those people having two feet would be akin to other people having an extra ear. When the offending object is removed they don’t feel handicapped. Instead they feel like their body is now complete and the way that Og/nature intended. And, AFAI have read, trans people feel like they are handicapped, to some extent, until they have been reassigned. They are forced to use the “wrong” bathroom, get funny looks if they are wearing the “wrong” clothes, etc.
Again, I have no problems with someone wanting to change their own gender. I could never imagine doing it. They can take my penis from me when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
BTW, aren’t people undergoing gender reassignment* supposed to have extensive psychiatric examinations and counseling to make sure they are comfortable with what they are doing and to understand that this is permanent? Shouldn’t they have to continue with it while in the process in case situations like this come up?
*It seems weird to call it “reassignment”. I was reassigned when I was in the Army and it only involved me moving my stuff from one set of barracks to another. It had nothing to do with the removal of my genitals.
Sex-reassignment surgery vs. amputation: The thing is, as I understand it, people who wish to transition from one gender to the other (surgically as well) have to adhere to a strict procedure that includes being evaluated by mental health professionals, and living for an extended period of time as their intended gender before having surgery. From wikipedia*:
There’s a lot more information in the article and I don’t want to post too much for fear of copyright violation of some such. I also did a quick search on body integration identity disorder**, which, according to wikipedia again (sorry), is considered a psychological disorder and is treated as such (don’t know if it works).
The wikipedia article indicates that citations are needed; I apologize for that. I try to do some digging around on the web to verify. Anyway, a preliminary view on psychological treatment of gender identity issues:
Basically, I would tend to define health disorders by the cause and treatment of them. IMHO, wanting to self-amputate falls under psychological problem whereas gender issues seem to be physical, as in, just as you are born with a particular set of genitalia and can’t change that, you are also born with a gender identity that doesn’t always match your anatomy, sadly.
By the way, the book She’s Not There by Jennifer Boylan describes her transition from male to female, and is an excellent read, both for its description of the process itself, and because it goes into how she dealt with it all her life and tried as hard as she could to not need to be female. I highly recommend it. She recently wrote another autobiography that I also found to be quite good called I’m Looking Through You. It isn’t specifically about gender transition but does touch on it. Also highly recommended, if for no other reason than because I think she’s an excellent and witty writer.
*Transgender health care - Wikipedia
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Integrity_Identity_Disorder
[QUOTE=Slypork]
But to those people having two feet would be akin to other people having an extra ear. When the offending object is removed they don’t feel handicapped. Instead they feel like their body is now complete and the way that Og/nature intended. And, AFAI have read, trans people feel like they are handicapped, to some extent, until they have been reassigned. They are forced to use the “wrong” bathroom, get funny looks if they are wearing the “wrong” clothes, etc.
[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the end result. I’m sure you can agree that there is a difference between being a man (for example) and lacking a limb.
It varies from place to place, hospital to hospital, and operation to operation. I presume this fellow went through evaluations before he was able to get his mastectomy.
At least he didn’t try to become a dolphin, right?
It brings to mind two posters here (who I haven’t seen in a while)-a woman who was with a MtF, who ended up impregnating the first woman, with “woman-sperm”.
(Of course, said posters, especially the first one, were incredibly obnoxious wannabe martyrs)
Either way, I’m with Kythereia-it is pretty cool.
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect]
Even as a professional LGBT advocate…
[/QUOTE]
Good, maybe you can help with something I’ve been wondering: in your professional opinion, counselor, are all LGBT (and especially T) proponents shrill, thoroughly unpleasant assholes, or is that phenomenon limited to this particular message board?
[QUOTE=TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW]
I’m sorry, but a sub-minority group of people with a sexual confusion issue that borders on schizophrenia aren’t allowed to just re-write the laws of nature
[/QUOTE]
TS/TG people aren’t a “sub-minority”, whatever the fuck that is; they aren’t confused – they know what they are better than you know what they are, after all; furthermore, transgenderism is not related to schizophrenia (there are probably some schizo TG folks, and schizos who have delusional ideas that they are TG, but I know that wasn’t what you meant), and finally, nobody’s rewriting any “laws of nature”.
That’s four (count 'em, 4) things you’ve gotten wrong in one sentence so far, and nothing right.
Well actually, yes, they are. In fact, they’re both bigots and assholes. So that makes you wrong two more times – nah, I’ll be generous and say one and a half. Which brings your total score up to 5.5 wrong, 0 right so far.
Five and a half wrong things in one short post, and you aren’t finished yet. So far, so good. Let’s see if your lucky streak keeps going, shall we?
No, it’s not. That’s 6.5 (six and a half) things you’re wrong about in this single post, still without getting a single item right. That’s most impressive, TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW, I must say. Only a unique mind could be capable of such a spectacular degree of wrongness.
Since you don’t know them, you can’t say for a certainty whether or not they’re mentally ill or mentally anything else, which means I can’t say for sure that your last statement was in and of itself wrong. However, making statements about things that you know jackshit about is always a mistake. An error. In other words, YOU’RE WRONG AGAIN, TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW, you precious genius, you!
You were just wrong seven and a half times in a row in two sentences. How the hell did you do* that*? Were you born with some kind of birth defect that causes you to be wrong all the time, or did you have to work to get that way?
And please notice that I haven’t even mentioned the flat-out lie (saying “I’m sorry” when you’re really nothing of the sort) with which your post opened.
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Good, maybe you can help with something I’ve been wondering: in your professional opinion, counselor, are all LGBT (and especially T) proponents shrill, thoroughly unpleasant assholes, or is that phenomenon limited to this particular message board?
[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s really pleasant of you. I’m not sure what I did to deserve that particular description, but it obviously must have been just about life-threatening.
Sorry, I should’ve said “all of them except matt_mcl.”
DLuxN8R-13, meh, I think most transexuals would consider it a compliment, considering who it’s coming from.
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Good, maybe you can help with something I’ve been wondering: in your professional opinion, counselor, are all LGBT (and especially T) proponents shrill, thoroughly unpleasant assholes, or is that phenomenon limited to this particular message board?
[/QUOTE]
You know, if you keep meeting people of a similar stripe and they all have the same reaction to you, maybe it’s time to stop placing the blame on them and look at yourself to see if that might be where the problem lies.