On pregnant men and the like

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Well, we will see how this goes, but I have some hopes for it.

If anyone is familiar with my posts, you will know that generally I hold an evolving position that is against board discussion rules regarding transgender issues. I am not here to argue it, or defend it. Actually I believe that I am much more understanding than my contemporaries on this issue as I will explain below, but I am honestly starting this in good faith to help fight ignorance and gain a better understanding of the issue.

The best “argument,” for lack of a better word, in favor of equal treatment for transgender people is that (as I understand it) some people have personalities that simply do not match with their biological sex. As it was explained to me, imagine myself, Ultravires, a straight white male, having all of my same thoughts and feelings, but looking down and seeing a vagina where my penis and testicles are. A fundamental mismatch.

That is not my fault and I shouldn’t be shamed or made fun of or denied equal treatment under the law because I was made that way. Taking it a step further, why shouldn’t I (in this hypo) feeling as I do, give up my old name of Jane and substitute a masculine one like Steve? Why can’t I take medicine so I can grow facial hair and dress as the gender (male) that I believe I am? Why shouldn’t society treat you (general you) as the asshole if you insist on calling me Jane for really no reason—doesn’t pick your pocket or break your leg to say Steve instead of Jane? Why should I be scorned in public or private for a genetic condition that I did not choose but was put on me by birth?

I get all of that, and you have me about 90% there on that issue. Seriously. My conservative friends think I am too soft on this issue, however I agree that mental health treatment is a necessary component to any of the above, but that is a digression.

What I don’t get is this idea of “pregnant men” and find it hard to defend with any sort of logic. Take the same hypo above. If I am Ultravires, feeling as the manly man I am, but just by accident of birth have a vagina, then why would I want to bear a child? That seems fundamentally at odds with my stated feelings as to why I felt/am (please forgive any incorrect terminology use as I am learning) male in the first place.

The first thing that comes to mind is that there are shades of gray such that in my hypo I would not want to bear a child, but that others do not have such a sharp definition of a male (again apologies if this is wrong) feeling, but have more of a half male/half female feeling or some other percentage of each such that the person is male in certain ways, but still female enough (I know some of these terms are going to get me Pitted) to want to bear a child.

That’s fair enough, but then the immediate objection is why would society refer to that person as a “man” if he or she does not him or herself believe in his or her full maleness? The counter argument is that if the person wants to be referred to as “he” or a “man” then that is what society should respect because, again, no pocket picking or leg breaking.

But I fear that when you go that far, the original argument comes back with more persuasive force–that language and descriptive terms are ones that belong to society at large and not to individuals. I cannot call a tree a dog because I want to, no matter how strongly I feel about it, or better stated, I can if I want, but I cannot insist that others do so.

I know I’m in the minority of this board, but I think it eminently reasonable for someone to say that in my first hypo, someone is being an asshole for not calling me a man because I was born with an unfortunate genetic anomaly and that for my happiness and others similarly situated, society should recognize that I am fully a man. But if I want and do bear a child, probably the top thing that any person on the street would say distinguishes male from female, why must society call me a man nonetheless? Because it makes me happy? What other aspects of my happiness must society oblige in?

I hope this is taken in the spirit it was offered and I mean no disrespect to anyone. I think someone like me can grow and come on board if there was more of an attempt at helping us understand instead of yelling “bigot.” So, with fervent hope, let’s see how this goes.

2

Some people want biological children. This is a very strong urge in some people.

I am not an expert on the topic, and I strongly suspect there is not just one answer to your question, but in at least one instance of “pregnant transgender man” the man’s partner (a cis woman) was unable to carry a child so the trans man had the pregnancy and gave birth to the couple’s children. Sure, they could have employed a surrogate and made a business transaction with a total stranger to have those children but they had a different option and took it.

I don’t know if that causes emotional or other issues with the trans man who does such a thing. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t, I’m sure it varies with the individual. On the other hand, if the people involved very, very much want children the trans man might take the approach that it’s only nine months out of a lifetime and he’s willing to do this to have children.

Why not adopt, you might say? Well, given how a lot of adoption agencies have very picky criteria and strongly favor heterosexual cis people (in some cases have additional criteria like religion and so on, whether they should or not) a couple where one (or even both) parents are trans gender may not have that option.

3

Most humans want to have children that are biologically related to them, and that desire doesn’t necessarily map to one’s sexuality or gender identity. The human mind is a complex thing and doesn’t always operate in ways that seem logical or consistent.

4

This is a bit of a minefield, but I’ll do what I can.

First, there is the question of “what is a man?” and what traits does such a person have, which is influenced not just by biology but also society and culture.

But in fact the world has long called some people “men” whose status is ambiguous. There are men who are shorter than most women, but still considered men even if men might be defined as taller than women (on average). Some men grow little or no facial hair (this can be heavily influenced by genetics and ancestry) but they’re still considered men. There are intersex people whose genitalia do not form in the typical manner who are nonetheless legally and socially men. There are men who have unfortunate accidents that require amputation of male organs but we still call them men.

So, apparently, our society does not require 100% adherence to strict definitions of “man” to regard a person as a man.

For trans gender people not everyone undergoes 100% of all possible transition treatments. You may (or may not, because I don’t speak for you) regard such a person as not “fully male” (or “fully female” for a trans woman) but often such people have reasons they feel to be important for the choices they make. For one thing, genital surgery can really screw up one’s ability to have sex or enjoy sex so some percentage of trans gender people do NOT have “bottom surgery” because they don’t want to risk sexual dysfunction or other potential complications and are content with looking their identified gender in clothes but not conforming while naked. Not everyone wants to or should undergo multiple surgeries.

Again, I am not an expert, but based on my limited experience trans gender people are much more concerned with being socially and legally regarded as their identified gender than the exact physical details. It’s not that the physical traits are unimportant - they are - but to trans gender people they are not THE most important part of the situation.

So perhaps, to you, the pregnant man seems a contradiction but to the person in question their situation may be the most comfortable set of compromises for them in a situation that is not and never will be perfect. Factors included in their decision may include “ability to have biological children”, “I don’t want to risk sexual dysfunction”, “I am worried about potential urological or other complications of further surgery”, “my partner can not carry a pregnancy but I can”, and so on and so forth.

5

You don’t have to fully understand it – no one can ever perfectly understand what’s going on in the minds of other people. Just treat people with decency and compassion (which isn’t to say you aren’t already doing that). If someone wants to be called a man, he/him, etc., it costs you nothing to do so. It doesn’t even really matter what’s going on in your mind – maybe you think “I’m not really sure this person is a man”. That doesn’t really matter – what matter is how you treat this person. If you treat this person with decency and compassion, which includes calling them by their preferred pronouns and gender identifiers, then you’re doing the right thing, and what you think about them deep down doesn’t really matter.

And I think the above applies to the vast majority of human interactions, not just dealing with gender identity or other social issues.

6

I see that as an argument, but not the best one. The best argument is that for some people this is a crucial part of their identity, and there’s significant public good in acknowledging folks’ identities and very no public harm in doing so.

We live in a society, we’re a bunch of jumped-up monkeys desperately trying to get by in the world around all these other jumped-up monkeys, and our best bet for doing so is to be kind to one another and generally let one another live the way we want to as much as possible.

The important question isn’t, “to what degree is Steve living by traditional measures of masculinity?” The important question is, “What pronouns does Steve want me to use?”

My job isn’t to judge him. My job is to respect him, or at least leave him alone.

Edit: or what iiandyiiii said!

7

First off, I want to thank you for being respectful, as well as actually asking the question rather than making assumptions.

The first thing that comes to mind is what @Broomstick (and now @Smapti) said: Even trans people have the procreative instinct. I’m a cisgender man. If the only way I could have a biological child was to get pregnant, I would definitely consider it. It wouldn’t be my preferred way to do it, but I don’t think it would change my internal mapping of myself as a man. Sure, there would be people who might think of me as feminine for doing so, but that would (hopefully) be temporary.

As for why we refer to even pregnant trans men as men: It’s not just the fact that it makes them happy. For one thing, the whole concept of being trans tends to involve gender dysphoria, an intense psychological feeling that you have been assigned the wrong gender, for which some sort of transitioning has been found to be the only cure. It’s so bad that 82% of trans people consider suicide and 40% attempt it. So to then go back and refer to someone who went to all that trouble as the old gender basically reignites those issues. It’s more than just making them sad.

But there’s also looking at it the other way: what benefit to society is there in insisting they are not the gender they say they are? What does society gain by having strict rules of who actually counts as male or female? I can’t say it’s any real imposition on me to refer to a trans person how they want to be called. Plus rigid gender roles already leads to problems with cisgender people who don’t fit a particular stereotype.

And then this is a group that has historically experienced (and continues to experience) a lot of hate and discrimination for being who they are. Trans people are more than four times as likely as cisgender people to face violent victimization. This doesn’t get better for pregnant men, and I suspect may even get worse.

It makes sense for us as a society not to be trying to police who is truly trans and who isn’t. It makes sense that we treat trans people as the gender they say they are. There is a very compelling reason to do so, and no compelling reason not to.

(That’s not to say that there aren’t some people who are only kinda in between, who identify as mostly male. The term I’ve seen is “trans masculine.” It’s possible that such a person would get pregnant, but I don’t think they tend to say “I am a man.” So they most likely wouldn’t identify as a pregnant man.)

8

It’s better not to contradict somebody else about what gender they are. This is the case for cisgender people, and for transgender people.

Whatever would be the point of arguing with somebody when they say what gender they are?

9

Why do you feel the need to “defend” it or not “defend” it?

If a man is pregnant, and that was his intention, then I am happy for him. “Defending” it wouldn’t cross my mind. My first thought is that I would be thankful for living in a society (and in an era) that doesn’t forbid it.

10

If you’re asking what you should say to your conservative pals who try to get you to defend things like the concept of a pregnant man, I think you should just say something like “it’s none of our business; just treat people with decency. Who cares if they call themselves a man? It doesn’t hurt anyone. Just be a good neighbor – if your neighbor says ‘Call me Phil’, then call them Phil. If your neighbor says ‘Call me a man’, then call him a man. That’s all there is to it.”

11

I have trouble adjusting to the new gender system too. There is a person on my team who was born female and identifies as male, and I’ve caught myself almost using the wrong pronoun (“sh… huh HE”) a couple times. It’s like today’s technology. It’s easy for kids born using it, but for us old cranks used to a previous level of technology, it’s hard to unlearn and learn anew.

Don’t tear yourself apart trying to figure out the logic behind it, OP. Just attribute it to “The heart wants what the heart wants.”

12

Yes! This was going to be the basis of my comments on the issue. Humans routinely accept and work with things they don’t fully understand, and this issue should be no different. Human sexuality and human relationships are very complex and are influenced by a plethora of variables. Deciding that it requires a full understanding before reaching some kind of philosophical acceptance of these issues is the wrong approach, and it is also a futile one.

I believe this is all part of the overriding feeling that many people have that “different” is “wrong” and needs to not only be discouraged but, in the view of the more radical among us, stamped out altogether. Our differences are a vital strength of our species, not a fault, and it is vital to our survival that we begin to understand that our uniqueness is a virtue. Keep in mind that people like Edison, Mozart, Michelangelo, Einstein, etc, were also “different” and, had they not existed, we would be diminished because of it.

13

Yeah, there are certainly instances where an aspect of someone’s transgender status might be hard for me to understand, but - to echo points others have made in this thread - really, who cares? I also don’t understand why someone might be a rabid football fan, or why they’d rather eat in restaurants all the time instead of cooking their own food. I don’t NEED to understand all the details of anyone else’s thoughts and feelings, all I need to do is treat them with respect. They are under no obligation to explain themselves to me anymore than I should have to defend the fact I’m introverted and love music.

However, I did once read a well-written, sensitive feature article that told the story of one individual in order to explore what it was like to be a pregnant man. I don’t remember anything about his partner other than that he was in a relationship, and his partner presumably wasn’t in a position to get pregnant.

They both wanted kids, so the transman stopped his hormone treatments and whatever other medical treatments he was undergoing and got pregnant.

He said that allowing his body to revert to female traits was for him quite a traumatizing experience - he had worked so hard to have the male body that matched what his mind told him he was, and then he had to give it all up for a while. But because he really wanted children, it was worth it to him to go through all that.

14

I have a spiritual view of this that we are spiritual beings operating in a place where things are broken, including us. We have to make it work for us to really do the good for others that we should desire to do, and there is no harm in that as long as we cause no harm in the process. While some things may (or may not) be fixed along the way, others will not be in this life. Not allowing someone to live their life, and in such hinders their good work in this world, is the evil in this world, which leads to the spiritual death of the person being oppressed, never allowing them to be able to flourish for who they are because they are not allowed to be who they are.

As such I do not believe that what we have in this world is really what it could be and one day will be in the ‘afterlife’, but a poor childlike attempt to emulate it, without wisdom and knowledge and even a happy heterosexual marriage is just as broken in this world and as such has no right or standing to condemn.

You mention mental health, living in a fucked up broken world, we all suffer from forms of mental health breakdown, just some are more in agreement with others and pass as normal, and perhaps have demonstrated a real or perceived as a broken way to advance society that is generally accepted.

You mention the desire to bear children, however there is also the desire to have children. While a ‘true man’ would not be though of carrying a child, the desire to have a child may override that, and that’s how it’s done. A pregnant man can celebrate their pregnancy, feel close to the child and even be thankful for the experience of closeness that a cis-man may even be jealous of. I don’t know of any, but I do know of some women who have and I see no reason why a trans man could not, even though it is trying, it is also an incredible life experience.

15

I hope you don’t mind but I wanted to distill your post down to the most important bits. It really flows better that way. :slight_smile:

-JB is, as ever, pining for a +1 or :+1: button.

16

I think it was around here that someone linked to a video of Mohammad Ali, in one of those pre-game smack-talk sessions with his opponent, and the opponent called him “Cassius.” “That’s your name,” the opponent insisted, “You told me that’s your name a few years ago,” as Ali got angrier and angrier.

In the ring, Ali beat the snot out of the guy, and at the end he kept shouting, “SAY MY NAME! SAY MY NAME!”

Which is all to say, I agree with iiandyiiii.

Edit: here’s the video.

17

A friend of mine linked on Facebook a photo of transgender men in white underwear with red spots around their genitals with the caption “People have periods.” While I’m cool with referring to people as whatever gender they prefer, I’m probably always going to associate menstruation with women.

18

All excellent responses so far, but I wanted to pick this one out. The difference is that if you said, “I don’t understand why you all get so crazy over [local college] football game. You all are crazy!” Or if you said, “It is far cheaper to cook at home, it takes little time, and is much healthier for you” you wouldn’t be ostracized and possibly lose your job.

You make a good point that each of us can live ours lives as we choose, even if you or I might think that we do stupid things (like pay $200 for an “official” NFL jersey). But usually the counter comments are taken without issue. You aren’t banned from saying you hate football or people who eat take out regularly. On this issue, we may not, by rule of the board, disagree with “official” policy and if you work for a big woke corporation, you may very well get fired for saying it.

That’s I guess, part of my push back, as people might be willing to understand an idea that isn’t forced on them, or like you, just to let it go. You aren’t out at sports bars on weekends protesting because it doesn’t affect you, but if there was an analogous situation where to keep your job you had to pretend to love football, there might be such a protest.

I think that’s where we are on this issue, especially with the added part about pregnant men.

19

But there are tons of things you might get fired for saying out loud.

Consider your co-worker, Janice. You might think Janice is ugly. Alternately, you might think Janice is the sexiest woman you’ve ever seen. Do not comment about Janice’s physical attractiveness at work. You shouldn’t do so even if it wouldn’t get you fired. It’s just not a decent or compassionate thing to do.

Similarly, do not comment negatively about someone’s gender identity at work. Why would you? Just be a decent and compassionate coworker. Don’t be a jerk. On the SDMB, at work, or anywhere else.

20

This sort of begs the question. I can tell Janice at work that she is crazy for raising chickens in her backyard, selling her car, or a myriad of other things. But if I say anything on this issue, it is forbidden, not just in work or this board, but if I want to stay in good standing in the community I had better shut up and not get into the nuances of it.

I think that is rather frightening for the future of freedom. I’m not saying that I should be able to intentionally insult Janice, but a quasi or actual rule which stifles dissent is the mark of tyranny in society, and just because the government doesn’t imprison me for it doesn’t make the free speech consequences any different if I need to keep that job. I get that I can’t insult my co-worker and keep my job, but this all begs the question of why an individuals’ preference must be society’s preference when it isn’t on any other issue.