It's not an immigration issue!

Great Debates
1

Not sure if this is really a ‘debate’ or just something I’d like to share and see what others think and if similar things are happening in their own local ballots - feel free to move. I was happy to vote this week, despite it not being a “big” election, but in researching the various candidates on the ballots I was quite dismayed at how many are running with anti-immigration rhetoric as the front running issue of their campaign.

To give some background, I live on Long Island in New York. For the most part I would say that undocumented residents aren’t a hugely visible problem in most areas. But there are a few hot spot towns where there are day laborers congregating for pick up, and residents claim they are being harrassed by the loiterers. There are a few cases of housing overcrowding. And what with the Hamptons and other wealthy areas, landscaping is big business and of course attracts day laborers.

Not that these aren’t issues to be dealt with, but I object the way that they have become the front running issue for local candidates for several reasons:

  1. Immigration is at best, a state and federal issue and really is inherently a federal issue. Sure, there are local problems related to it, but immigration laws are federal laws, and thats the venue that should be prominent for election campaigning. It makes sense for a potential senator or representative to run on issues of federal law, but not town council and county representatives.

  2. Most of the pragmatic problems are only weakly related to immigration. Day laborer congregation, housing overcrowding, public disorder and harrasment are really class issues. If you magically made all undocumented workers go away, there would still be poor citizens who were attracted to day labor jobs and who could only afford overcrowded housing. My own house, which used to be rented by me and other college students was once inspected by town code officials for possible overcrowding because of all the cars parked in front of our house. These problems are best solved as issues unto themselves without the immigration rhetoric. It’s like if there was a problem with people drinking in public and they happened to be mostly black people, would you focus on the drinkingin public, or would you turn it into a racial issue and try to exile all black people?

  3. For those who have turned the pragmatic issues into a bigger ‘in principle’ issue of the presence of undocumented workers somehow being unfair to citizen workers, I strongly suspect hypocrasy. How many of these same people are doing anything at all about USA companies using foreign labor? How many of these people go out of their way to buy American made products? How many give a hoot about non citizens who aren’t Latino?

2

How many anti immigration lawmakers use the cheapest available labor to landscape their yard with a little wink and a nudge, but would deny having ANY knowledge that some of the workers were undocumented when the news crews expose them?

3

For one reason why people are incensed at the presence of illegal immigrants and why their continued and future presence is unfair to American workers and legal immigrants, search you tube for “Grigsby and Cohen” and watch the video. It will probably astound you.

The fact that people don’t necessarily buy American has nothing to do with American employers employing Americans. One issue is economic and the other is a moral/political dilemma with economic consequences. Just because I may choose a German car that does not mean I am willing to have the entire citizenry come to this country and apply for my job, particularly if they can do it better or cheaper.

4

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]
To give some background, I live on Long Island in New York.
[/quote]

To address point #2, everything on Long Island is a class issue in my experience. I don’t know how many jobs on LI, if any, could really be lost to illegal immigrants, or how much impact it’s having on any other area. But the presence of illegals, and from what I can tell the presence of non-white people in general, makes some Long Islanders feel unsafe. Last I knew, the area was very segregated. And with Long Island being conservative as it is, some anti-immigration rhetoric isn’t unexpected.

5

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]

  1. For those who have turned the pragmatic issues into a bigger ‘in principle’ issue of the presence of undocumented workers somehow being unfair to citizen workers, I strongly suspect hypocrasy. How many of these same people are doing anything at all about USA companies using foreign labor? How many of these people go out of their way to buy American made products? How many give a hoot about non citizens who aren’t Latino?
    [/QUOTE]

Latinos are certainly the most visible of undocumented workers in my neck of the woods and as the saying goes it is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. One of the downsides of importing labor is that it lowers the value of said labor which translates into lower wages.

Marc

6

[QUOTE=denquixote]
Just because I may choose a German car that does not mean I am willing to have the entire citizenry come to this country and apply for my job, particularly if they can do it better or cheaper.
[/QUOTE]

What’s the difference? In either case they are taking jobs away from Americans. What different does their location make? Your “willingness” still seems just as economical. How is one more or less moral/political?

And in fact, isn’t buying a German car (for someone who complains about undocumented laborers) much much worse? In the case of American companies hiring non American workers, at least they aren’t going against their own beliefs. If someone complains about harming American jobs and then does something to harm American jobs, that makes them hypocritical!

7

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]

  1. For those who have turned the pragmatic issues into a bigger ‘in principle’ issue of the presence of undocumented workers somehow being unfair to citizen workers, I strongly suspect hypocrasy. How many of these same people are doing anything at all about USA companies using foreign labor? How many of these people go out of their way to buy American made products? How many give a hoot about non citizens who aren’t Latino?
    [/QUOTE]

There’s alot of hypocrisy on both sides of the ledger about alot of things. While I agree that it’s more federal and less state/local, when localities choose to be sanctuary cities and when governors decide to do things that could impact federal elections it becomes a bigger issue.

I wonder how willing to help some elected officials would be if they thought that illegals (when and if they vote) and their sympathisers would vote predominantly Republican.

8

My mother, her brother, and my Grandmother were all immigrants.

My grandfather was a US citizen who was taken back to Italy when he was a small boy during the Great Depression. After WW2 my grandfather came to the US and worked as a laborer and saved every penny he could so that he could get my grandmother, and my mom and uncle over to America. He dug ditches. Everything that my grandma, mom, and uncle had was brought over in a big wooden trunk…hahah legend has it that it was full of some really hard cheese.

My mom was 4 years old, and SHE had to follow the rules and learn the language along with my Grandmother and my Uncle. It took them quite awhile, but at least they followed the rules and became US citizens. Hell, I bet alot of people who finally do become citizens don’t even know the pledge of allegiance. I remember watching the television coverage of when the Statue of Liberty was rebuilt, and they had some immigrants reciting the pledge, and at least half of them were not even moving their mouths…I guess they were humming it?

If the rules these days need to be changed then change them, but people who just think they can break the law (federal, state or local) just because they think it is not fair (boohoohoo!!!) do not deserve to be here. Maybe if people followed the rules and stopped sneaking in placing such a huge burden on our social services, then our immigration system would work…but because of these people it throws everything out of whack and it causes the rule-followers to have to wait even longer.

9

When my house was being built I noticed that an awful lot of the various subs were Latinos that didn’t speak English. (Usually with the exception of the head guy.)

I asked the construction manager what the story was. He very candidly said something to the effect, “don’t knock it, this place would cost you $50k more without these guys.”

I asked him what happened to all the Americans that used to do this work, and he basically said, “Not my problem.”

10

[QUOTE=Ring]
When my house was being built I noticed that an awful lot of the various subs were Latinos that didn’t speak English. (Usually with the exception of the head guy.)

I asked the construction manager what the story was. He very candidly said something to the effect, “don’t knock it, this place would cost you $50k more without these guys.”

I asked him what happened to all the Americans that used to do this work, and he basically said, “Not my problem.”
[/QUOTE]
So what did you do? Did you fire them all and try to find English speakers? Or did you accept the $50k savings? I’m curious. If you found English speakers, what did you talk with them about in English?

11

Absolutely not. It would have seriously delayed completion of the house, and $50k is $50k.

Yes I accepted the $50k savings. It just means that more for me when I sell the place.

Actually I usually did talk them. I figured if I was nice to them, and showed interest in their work they might do a better job.

12

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]
What’s the difference? In either case they are taking jobs away from Americans. What different does their location make? Your “willingness” still seems just as economical. How is one more or less moral/political?

And in fact, isn’t buying a German car (for someone who complains about undocumented laborers) much much worse? In the case of American companies hiring non American workers, at least they aren’t going against their own beliefs. If someone complains about harming American jobs and then does something to harm American jobs, that makes them hypocritical!
[/QUOTE]

In the case of me buying a car made in a foreign country I am making an economic decision, which may or may not be based on the value of the car. Where it is based on the value of the car (and not its rarity or prestige or whatever, I should have no responsibility to buy an inferior product. (I own an American made car, but the argument is valid if the product happens to be inferior.) I am not complaining about American companies hiring non-Americans, I am complaining about them hiring illegal immigrants and hiring “legal” immigrants based on a purported search that turned up no qualified Americans. Both of these situations drive down wages for American workers and both are illegal and immoral. There is nothing immoral in trying to get the best value for your dollar. It is the law of suply and demand and the essence of capitalism. If Americans cannot compete (which I certainly do not believe to be the case) they deserve to lose out. Buying an inferior product, out of sympathy or misguided loyalty will not prop up an inferior company for long.

If you want to argue about buying goods made under sweat shop conditions being immoral and an affront to American workers I am in agreement. I don’t believe that to be the case with the German car, but it may be the case with some products made here by illegals.

Did you watch the video I made reference to? That is what I object to and it has nothing to do with Latino/non-latino.

13

[QUOTE=denquixote]
In the case of me buying a car made in a foreign country I am making an economic decision, which may or may not be based on the value of the car. […] I am complaining about them hiring illegal immigrants and hiring “legal” immigrants based on a purported search that turned up no qualified Americans. Both of these situations drive down wages for American workers and both are illegal and immoral. There is nothing immoral in trying to get the best value for your dollar.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll grant you the illegality argument as a real difference between the two situations. But, besides the illegality, since that doesn’t seem to be the only principle you are talking about, I don’t see how you can argue that it’s OK to make economic choices to save money that hurt Americans in one situation, but not OK in the other.

14

When the Sheckstress came here in the late 90s, she worked jobs that would force her to learn English, because she couldn’t see the point in NOT learning it. When she went for her citizenship, she studied for days. She still doesn’t know the pledge of allegiance, though. At least she’s voted every time she’s been allowed.

15

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]
If you magically made all undocumented workers go away, there would still be poor citizens who were attracted to day labor jobs and who could only afford overcrowded housing.
[/QUOTE]

Thirty/forty years ago, before the current immigrant surge hit, who was doing those jobs? Was there overcrowded housing in Hempstead then?

16

[QUOTE=jackdavinci]
I’ll grant you the illegality argument as a real difference between the two situations. But, besides the illegality, since that doesn’t seem to be the only principle you are talking about, I don’t see how you can argue that it’s OK to make economic choices to save money that hurt Americans in one situation, but not OK in the other.
[/QUOTE]

It’s just like helping your buddy pass anatomy in medical school by feeding him answers. You haven’t done him any favors. He’ll efventually be discovered and cut loose. If you buy an inferior American product simply because it is made in America, then you are subsidizing poor quality. The company will never be able to compete in the international market, which is what we most need. Noone wins in the long run if we buy only inferior products. The actions you are encouraging are exactly those which were required in the cold war era Soviet bloc and we can see how successful that was. I grant you that it is truly unpatriotic to buy a product not manufactured or built here just because we prefer the prestige of buying a Rolls Royce or a Mercedes Benz.

17

BTW the OP suggested that there may be an element of racism in all of this illegal immigrant bashing. I say this is not true. People are just appalled at the tolerance for law breaking that exists, especially in light of the fact that it hurts the American economy (my opinion, as well, I think, as the opinion of those who are appalled.) I am just as pissed about the Canadian that sneaks across as I am about the Irishman or Serb who get to come because of political chicanery as I am about the Mexican or South American who risks his life to get here, in fact I am a great deal angrier about the former situations than the latter.

Did you watch the video I cited? Until you can say you watched it leave me out of your debate.

18

[QUOTE=denquixote]
BTW the OP suggested that there may be an element of racism in all of this illegal immigrant bashing. I say this is not true.
[/QUOTE]

Well, maybe. Locally, the immigration issues circle mostly around things that are visible in our area, like day laborer loitering and harassment, and issues related to overcrowding. Those parts of the overall immigration issues tend to involve more Latinos, whereas other immigration issues such as those related to visas and permits and so forth might have a more diverse racial mix. So yeah it might just be who happens to be more visible, and not who is what race for the most part, although undoubtedly racism plays a role for some people - but it may very well be a minority. But anyway, that was just a one-off thought that didn’t have much to do with my main ideas.

[QUOTE=denquixote]
People are just appalled at the tolerance for law breaking that exists, especially in light of the fact that it hurts the American economy (my opinion, as well, I think, as the opinion of those who are appalled.).
[/QUOTE]

I think there is actually a lot of evidence that it helps the economy more than hurts it. But my point was, people seem to be pissed about things that are tangentially related to immigration issues like loitering and overcrowding, and instead of dealing with the issues on their own merits, they making it into a larger, mostly unrelated issue. They claim to be concerned about the immigration issue, but the obvious truth is that if these tangentially related problems weren’t visible to them, they wouldn’t be paying immigration issues more than lip service. If loitering is a problem, then do something about the loitering. Don’t label the loiterers as being one class of people and then campaign against that class of people. It’s just not an honest or respectful way to deal with a problem. And even if immigration was the direct and only cause of the loitering and other problems, and even if linking those problems to a specific class of people was ok, it’s just not an effective or efficient way of dealing with the problem, especially locally. The only true justification could be political pandering.

[QUOTE=denquixote]
Did you watch the video I cited? Until you can say you watched it leave me out of your debate.
[/QUOTE]

I did watch your video but didn’t find it particularly relevant here. While it is good evidence of serious systemic problems with the immigration policies of this country, it shows a somewhat obscure area of the overall issue. I feel fairly confident in guessing that the majority of people concerned about immigration are not primarily focused on companies who are finding legal loopholes to get proper paperwork for their employees. And I can pretty much guarantee you that no one in the Long Island local elections is bringing that up. People here may say that they are interested in the broad issue and principles, but really mostly they are concerned about what is directly affecting them, or which is visible.