It's not anyone's business, but since you COULD change, you deserve to be harrassed.

The BBQ Pit
81

Yes, but you keep focusing on them changing, as if that has much of a chance of making things better.

I mentioned drag queens and gay people before. Would you seriously suggest to any gay person you knew, who was experiencing harassment, to “stop acting so gay”? Would you seriously, (in the spirit if pragmatism, of course), suggest that they consider doing that?

We’re griping about the assholes in this thread, and you initially called it “whining.” And, unlike the accidental (one would hope) out-of-control truck, some people are experiencing a deliberate, regular acts of assholishness. These acts are not immediate life-threatening things, they are steady, relentless, and deliberate. Not the same thing as the random, out-of-control truck.

Most would agree (don’t know if you would) that gay people should not have to change in order to avoid harassment. Instead, there has been increased pressure upon assholes who harass gay people to stop it. Obviously this pressure is not 100% effective, but it seems like some progress has been made. This progress was not made due to gay people “changing,” it was made because the assholes are starting to be held accountable.

Also, I daresay that the gay people in years past who tried so valiantly to conceal their homosexuality were never really happy, and did not consider concealment of their true selves (to avoid harassment) to be an effective solution.

No kidding!

82

On SDMB, I know we have threads for people to encourage each other in their weight-loss attempts. On another messageboard I frequent, one of these types of threads was started. One member took it upon himself to say that he doubted anyone would actually stick to their program, they (unlike himself) lacked dedication, and he was just waiting for them to fail. He then went on in great detail to decribe all he did to keep in shape, since, apparently, if he can do it, so can everyone else.

This member is known for his assholery, but it still shocked me to see him cut people down for no real reason other than that, in his mind, they were lacking in dedication to their goals. I’m sure that post really inspired the people of that thread.

As someone who went through 6 or 7 years of social exclusion, this makes me happy! (Hated, hated elementary school - sadly it stuck with me more than I would’ve thought - I think it’s part of why I don’t like young kids. Silly brain picking things to be associated with danger.)

Yes and no actually. I think it depends on why you do nothing and also if there’s a group that does nothing or ignores as a whole. I did nothing in response to the bullying, because I didn’t know to do in repsonse that wouldn’t get me into trouble. Fighting? Telling an authority figure? Heh. (I once thought a teacher didn’t like me - I went to the school counselor about it, she told the teacher, and the teacher pulled me out of class to talk about it. This was fourth grade. And the teacher used her height to the greatest psychological advantage. Took my years to discuss anything with anyone in an authoritative position.) Today my first response is still to do nothing - even at times I need to do something. I’m slowly learning different responses, but relearning takes time.

Although the times that actually call for doing nothing or ignoring someone now feel more like me doing something, then me not being able to do anything. Score!

83

I recently had a very high school deja vu-like experience of having some anonymous person tell me I shouldn’t use a picture of myself as an avatar on another site (online journal) because I was too hideous.

I thought WTF? What are you 12 years old? Since I am what I am and never ever claimed to beautiful, I told them it was all I had to work with and they were just going to have to deal with it. The fact that they were too cowardly to use their own name to insult me nullified any power in that remark.

So yeah, people are assholes. If they would take all the time and effort they expend trying to hurt other people and use it to work on the ugliness inside of them, the world would be a better place. The trouble is these type of people are so damaged and lacking insight that they never can seem to figure out that the problem is themselves.

84

Hey there, yourself, neighbor.

85

I’ve been focusing on that as a reaction to all the complaints saying no one should even consider changing, etc. If someone starts a thread saying assholes should never be held accountable, I’ll be there right alongside you arguing against it.

Depends on exactly what he was doing. Obviously I wouldn’t use those particular words in any case.

I notice that you keep trying to bring this around to what I would tell someone to do. How’s that working so far?

Don’t tell me that if an asshole driver were deliberately charging straight at you, you’d stand firm and get flattened, just to prove a point about how unjust it is that you should be the one to move instead of him. If your goal is to avoid getting run over, the most important concern isn’t “what’s wrong with that driver?” but “what can I do to avoid it?”

True, mere harassment isn’t an immediate threat on one’s life. What that means is that it’s easier to tolerate. While it would be crazy to stand in the way of a rogue truck just to prove a point, one can choose to accept harassment just to prove a point and live to see the next day.

That’s terrific, and as you know, I’ve never said they shouldn’t be held accountable.

86

Yeah, and the reaction is that most of the time, it’s a useless bit of advice. It won’t stop the bullies, it won’t make the victim happier, and in some cases, it only validates the bully’s actions. Been there, discussed that, get tired of being asked (over and over again), “What did you do?”

Well, you’re the one that’s all hot to give people advice that probably occurred to them 30 seconds after they started to get harassed.

When people are trying to avoid getting killed, then your analogy will be apt. Since harassment doesn’t usually include murder attempts, I don’t think it’s gonna work.

Not to prove a point, but because “changing” isn’t really helping in most cases, and in some cases, actually encourages the bullies. But we’ve already told you that, like, several times already. But you keep returning to recommending the same old obvious, tired advice that rarely really helps, and often leaves the victim with the message that they did something to warrant the abuse.

87

You must be mistaking me for someone else. I haven’t given anyone such advice.

88

I have no idea whether you’ve actually, physically given someone that advice, but you’re advocating it, and recommending it. That’s what I meant by “all hot to give” the advice. You’re for it.

89

Almost right. Replace “it” with “pragmatism” and there you go.

90

Pragmatism that doesn’t often work, or doesn’t produce satisfying results? Okay, if that’s how you want to define it.

91

Mr 2001, I’m getting the impression (which may be completely wrong) that what you want is for the victims to just stop whining about the harrassment unless they are willing to do something about whatever characteristic is attracting the harrassers.

Now, you have said some things that seem to negate that idea, but you haven’t made it clear exactly what you want the victims to do, other than not to have a ‘pity party’ and sit about ‘whining’ about the assholes.

For example, the posters who talked about exercising and having things thrown at them. Using your ‘pragmatic’ approach, these posters should consider why they’re being harrassed (being overweight) and doing something about it (they are, they were out exercising). I think you would agree that if the particular street, sidewalk, etc, they chose to exercise on is otherwise agreeable to them, they should not change just because of the harrassment.

So, here’s where I get confused. What do you want the victims to do? I think their venting is completely justified; it sounds to me as if you’re saying they should suck it up and say nothing. Can you please enlighten me further on your position?

92

Well, I think it would be wise to consider other streets. Given a choice between two equally good jogging routes, one of which is lined with assholes and the other of which isn’t, only a masochist would insist on sticking with the first one.

Sure. If they only want to vent about their problems, and they don’t want to hear suggestions, they should either indicate that in their OPs or post in a private journal where they can filter comments. If someone posts a rant about a problem he’s having, but doesn’t mention how he’s tried to solve it or what he’s unwilling to try, then he shouldn’t be surprised when he gets suggestions he doesn’t want to hear.

93

Assuming, of course, that there are other choices available.

But this places us right back at blaming the victim, as in ‘What have you done to fix the problem?’ Aren’t people allowed to just vent even if the OP doesn’t specifically state that’s all they want to do?

94

I suspect that if, say, losing a lot of weight were as easy as hopping back onto the sidewalk, there would be no fat people. Changing a personal characteristic that’s prominent enough to attract negative attention from strangers is, unlike stepping a few feet away, not going to be free, almost effortless, nearly instantaneous, and 100% effective.

Even if there were a magical way for people to easily and immediately alter their appearance or personality in order to better conform with social norms, current fashion, and standards of beauty, I don’t think it would be healthy to encourage this. It would not benefit the individual or society at large.

People who are too fat or too thin get all kinds of flak. People with bright red hair are often made fun of. Women with breasts that are unusually big or small are subjected to unwanted attention, ranging from off-color remarks to physical assault. People who “dress funny” or who seem “geeky” are favorite targets for harassment. Do you think the world would be better off if everyone on earth had the same “average” build, there were no redheads, all women had breasts of the same “average” size, and everyone dressed exclusively in the latest fashions and watched Friends instead of Star Trek? Would you really want to see human variation reduced in such a way?

If so, well, I’ve got no response that doesn’t run afoul of Godwin’s Law. But if not, don’t tell people they should expect senseless abuse unless they’re willing to change themselves to better fit the “norm”.

95

Maybe I’m missing something amidst the very sad anecdotes, but surely there’s a sensible middle ground even about being victimized. (That wasn’t intended at all sarcasticlly, btw. Running up against hostile shits hurts.)
I have absolutely no respect, patience or support for anyone for bullying another person, no matter the pretext. And let’s face it, bullies aren’t in short supply. Plenty of people, maybe even otherwise fairly nice people, have their stupid prejudices or just plain ugly moments. The “difference” can be anything–no matter how trivial–and whether or not the difference is changeable or not really isn’t the issue: race, appearance, interests, etc.

People get put down for all kinds of things. I just don’t see there’s any special degree of nastiness reserved for whether or not the vulnerablity is changeable or not. Bullies are human sharks: any blood in the water. White women are spoiled whiners. White men are paranoid overlords. Anyone of color is quaint but marginal. Fat people are lazy. Buff people are shallow narcissists. Geeks are insular. Poor people are shiftless. Geeks are insular. Goths are violent nihilists. Moms are ditzy. Priests are pedophiles. Jews are greedy. Muslims are terrorists. Old people are stupid. Kids are spoiled. Etc. etc. ad nauseum.

But there’s a point in the civic compact where the responsibility to not accept any of it falls on all of us. And that includes forcibly rejecting the label of victim. I don’t completely hold with the dictum that nobody can you a victim without your consent but there’s more than a grain of truth in it. And it also keeps some much-needed perspective on how dire victimization can be–and too often is.
There’s a distinction to be drawn between pain and trauma.

Being put down sucks, but everybody human comes in for it, some time or some way. Accepting the victim label is perilous, not the least because it grants a perverse and completely underserved validity to the attack. One way–not the only way–to fight the attack is to reject the label upfront. Whatever label, but don’t grant it headroom it never deserved in the first place. Yes, it’s hard but nobody’s exempt.

Somebody “being mean” doesn’t make one a victim. The other person might be thinking or acting like a jerk but folding under even the most undeserved attack doesn’t confer dignity or credibility to the recipient either.

96

Goddess knows, I’ve had it suggested to me a time or two, as a serious suggestion, by other gay people even.

As a wise person said, “Being closeted doesn’t keep them from hating you because you’re gay. It keeps them from knowing they hate you because you’re gay.”

This is applicable in analogous fields. I do not approve of the notion that because others are behaving horribly to you, you are the one who should be penalized by being pressured to alter yourself. It is exactly backward.

97

Naturally.

It makes no sense to call that “blaming the victim”. Just because there might be something you can do to mitigate a problem doesn’t mean the problem is your fault.

Sure, just like anyone who reads the rant is allowed to offer possible solutions. But there’d be a lot less complaining if the people who only want to vent and only want responses like “stay strong” and “don’t listen to them, you’re fine the way you are” and “you go, girl” would make it clear at the beginning.

Why not? The world is full of assholes. If you don’t fit the “norm”, you can expect some harassment because of it. That sucks, but it’s how the world works, and I’m not going to pretend it isn’t. There are plenty of anecdotes on the SDMB to back it up, including some in this very thread.

That doesn’t mean I want a world where everyone is the same; it only means I’m being realistic about the way people treat each other. We can take the world back one asshole at a time, whether it’s through better education or just through calling them out when we see them, but until that magical day when all the assholes are gone, people who stick out are going to have to deal with some level of harassment.

98

So you’re recommending that until then everyone do their best to comform and avoid harassment? That sure seems like it’s what you’re saying, but that’s inconsistent with your claim not to want a world where everyone is the same.

There’s a pretty big difference between “Gosh, it sucks that some people can be such jerks to anyone who’s different, but you’ve just got to be strong and not let them get to you” and “Gosh, it sucks that some people can be such jerks to anyone who’s different, so you’d better stop being different.”

99

Nope. I’m not sure why you think that’s what I’m saying. I haven’t told anyone to conform, I’m merely pointing out that it’s an option to be considered. Conform and avoid harassment OR don’t conform and deal with harassment, I don’t care which. Not conforming and still avoiding harassment isn’t really an option as long as assholes still roam the earth.

100

Mr2001 I appreciate your pragmatism and to, an extent, I agree that complaining all by itself does no good. However, I don’t know that the only options out there are just complaining or conforming. There are other options, and conforming isn’t always such an admirable thing.

Or maybe I’m just hearing the words of my 8th grade guidance counselor all over again. (Sheesh, why did I open this thread. That’s a memory I thought I’d successfully suppressed.)

Back in 8th grade (1979–yes, we had schools then, some even had electricity!), I was really good at algebra. I got the high score on just about every test and homework assignment. Our teacher made many scores public. He’d announce the top grades on tests, and we self graded our homework then call out our scores at the start of every class.

I got a lot of ridicule for getting the top scores. It wasn’t cool to lead the algebra class in 1979. It wasn’t the school bullies who tormented me so much as my own friends. (Well, I thought they were “friends” at the time. Looking back, they were awful.) They’d make some catty comment about me being a brain, and if I reacted I was told “you’re too sensitive; we’re just kidding.”

The worst experience came when some of my “friends” (it was easy to find out it was them) told my algebra teacher that I was cheating on my homework by calling out scores I didn’t get (it was all on the honor system). I was summoned to talk to my teacher, mother, and guidance counselor. Lucky for me, I had saved all my homework assignments in my folder. And, even luckier for me, my mother fought like hell on my behalf.

After the alleged cheating was dealt with, my teacher left and the guidance counselor asked what I was doing to cause fellow classmates to lie about me. I clearly remember him telling me “you know, you can still get a good grade and not always get the top score. Think about that.”

Here’s where I got lucky for the third time. My mother went ballistic! I mean, my tiny, demure mom was standing up, leaning over this guy’s desk, and shouting at him. As someone who got her PhD in the early 60’s when married women didn’t do that, my mother found the idea that her daughter should do less than her best to be reprehensible.

After we left, mom and I had a talk about how my “friends” were acting towards me and how I was responding to it. To some extent, I was allowing them to tease me about my scores by the way I reacted to it. This post is already long, so I won’t go into detail. In summary, I would either get defensive or just go along with these girls when they teased me. We discussed better strategies, and I tried to work it out. The teasing abated somewhat. Not 100%, but things did get a little bit better. So I did change some of my behavior with respect to how I responded to teasing, but I didn’t conform by sandbagging my scores.

Plus, mom reassured me that I was an okay person and should be proud of what I’d done. It does help to be told that the assholes (or 8th grade bitches) have the problem, not you.

(BTW mom took me out of that school at the end of the semester.)

I also don’t agree that we have to just accept that there are, and will always be, assholes. Nothing ever happened to those girls who accused me of cheating. That kind of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated. **CanvasShoes ** didn’t tolerate it on her bus. That alone probably didn’t change the asshole riding her bus, but it probably made the poor guy he picked on feel a whole lot better. Plus, if a bunch of people act like CanvasShoes did, it may very well force that asshole to be better behaved. Bullying shouldn’t be treated as a socially acceptable behavior.