Veiled? I thought the point of that question was obvious. We all know that some people are harassed more than others, and it isn’t just because they were born under the wrong star. As CanvasShoes said, it’s because they stick out. While it’d be nice to live in a world where people didn’t get harassed for being different, that isn’t the world we live in today.
Are you saying people with certain traits that stick out aren’t harassed any more, on average, than anyone else, just that it isn’t a “good” reason to harass someone?
Indeed. That’s a good example of someone who is upset with you personally and will find something to complain about, no matter what you do or what you look like. But how often does that really happen? Why would you be any more likely than, say, me to encounter people who are upset with you personally, if you aren’t doing anything to piss them off?
Yes. A variation on “What did you do?” Like I said, not very helpful.
It’s because bullies and assholes are stupid and will pick out some obvious difference in their victim. The victim can change, which will very likely embolden the asshole bully. And even if the victim changes, they have the attention of the bully and often will still be harassed, because the bully knows that they can get to them.
There is no good reason to harass someone, but those who go over-the-top with flamboyant differences will probably get more attention. The unimaginative bullies will notice them first.
I didn’t do anything to piss them off, other than to have legs.
I’m curious, Mr2001: Are you only going to respond to Canvas Shoes’ and my posts, or are you aware that others on this thread have contributed some interesting points as well?
Again, this assumes the bully knows you and is focusing on you personally to make your life harder. As I wrote earlier, that is a different (and IME, rare) breed of asshole and must be dealt with differently. Your OP did not seem to refer to those types of people, though.
I’ve just been trying to respond to the posts I disagree with, without addressing other posts that cover the same points. wring, Farmwoman, and Abe’s recent posts are spot on and I take no exception to them.
This is the point I’m trying to make. Of course you can never totally eliminate the chance of being pestered by some random jerk, but what you can do is change the things that attract random jerks.
And this is where it breaks down: Should the drag queen, for instance, change who they are to avoid random jerks? Did they do something wrong, or preventable? Should they be told to suck it up and become accustomed to the abuse (i.e., “stop whining”), or be told that if they want to prevent the abuse, that they should change?
Some things can be changed, because when all is said and done, the victim doesn’t end up worse off for changing. But that still leaves the asshole remaining an asshole, and if we as a society look the other way, (or worse, ask the victim, “What did you do?”) we are not helping at all.
And, as wring and others have pointed out, changing and trying to fit in really doesn’t guarantee anything, and often, makes no significant difference. In fact, your changing (and trying to minimize ways that you stand out) might only embolden an asshole, or validate their actions—so they’ll keep bullying others. So, the focus on the victim changing really isn’t all that helpful, since it usually does not relieve the harassment in any profound or significant way. All the while, the assholes keep doing what they’re doing, while everyone else points their finger at the victim, telling them to “stop whining” and asking them how they can change.
But this takes the responsibility for civilized behavior off the shoulders of the jerk and places it squarely on the victim. That is wrong. The OP made a point of saying that the object of harassment is not behaving outside the spectrum of social acceptability, isn’t bothering anyone, and causes no harm or threat to the abuser. Being a geek, wearing thick glasses, having a large caboose, uncooperative hair, a peculiar gait, bad teeth, poor posture, or a fondness for lumpy old clothing may all be things one chooses to change in an attempt to conform to the reign of the jerks, thereby avoiding taunts, but there are plenty of others who think these oddities are within the normal range of the human condition and will continue to hold the harassers responsible instead of the harassed.
And while I understand your point that assigning responsibility does little to change the jerks’ behaviors, my point is that any suggestion that it’s the victim’s responsibility to straighten up and act right does less, and is morally reprehensible to boot.
More people than the two of us have said the same thing we have.
You’re not thinking overall pic here. With either the same likely holds true, with the second, the drive by asshole, he never knows whether or not his so-called 'helpful, inspirational" comments do anything, which really, makes it quadruple the illogic of the 'latch on" ashole.
My statement here doesn’t change my reply to you. Why do assholes choose obvious traits to pick on? NOT because they wouldn’t pick on other traits. But because their mentality and intelligence doesn’t easily lend itself to picking out other traits to pick on.
Please note I did NOT say that those were the only traits they picked on, but was describing why those seem to be the most prevalent. I’m sure almost everyone has been bullied at one time or another.
I was too. Early on in junior HS, 7th or 8th grade, I don’t remember which, by a girl named Kathy Groeger, or Greagee, something like that. I was a totally average kid (other than having “bloomed” rather early on in the chest region), in every way, not fat, not thin, not ugly, not so pretty as to get the “slut” bullying.
But this gir,l who didn’t know me AT all, but decided to single me out, decided for some bizarre reason, that I’d make a good target for her bullying. She decided to sit by me, lightly kick my leg and intone “lezzie” over and over again. Weird little girl. I told her to quit it several times and finally POINTEDLY moved away from her, giving the teacher a look and telling her that she was bothering me on purpose.
I avoided this girl for the rest of jr high, I don’t remember seeing her much in HS. So no, not all bullies are so lacking in imagination that they can’t make something up. My point was, that most are, and just latch on to the easiest most obvious (to THEM) thing.
Well, again, you’re missing my point. It’s so ingrained in people by the media that ugly is bad, and beautiful is good, that many people (bullies with little intelligence or imagination) can’t see that the outside has nothing to do with worth.
In other countries, without such shallow entertainment being held up as THE standard, then a person’s looks, even if ugly don’t have the same instant “bad, bad stupid person” connotations as they do here. A person is more judged on WHO they are rather than what they look like.
And NO, that is NOT to say that that doesnt’ ever ever happen in other countries, just from what I’ve read, seen and heard from others, it’s not such a given thanks to the media.
Excuse me? I did NOT say “it’s because they stick out”. I said it’s because of the limited imaginatin and intelligence of the bullies that they glom on to the most noticeable to THEM, the bullies, trait to pick on. There is a BIG difference in the two different statements, what I actually said, and what you changed it to. Don’t twist people’s words around.
Why? Why is it the victim’s responsibility to change, regardless of the reason for his targetting? Whether it be something noticeable enough for a bully to glom onto or not?
Again, as wring, farmwoman and others have pointed out, this has no bearing on the assholery being practiced. So why does the VICTIM need to change?
Why are you, or do you SEEM to be so against holding the assholes responsible, and of trying to educate others growing up and so on, in being properly socialized, and acting like human beings?
Again, for the obvious “pick-on-able” traits to be changed to “suit” the bully isn’t really what he wants. He just wants an outlet for his own cowardice and anger, so HE and his ilk are what need to be changed, not the overweight and geeky.
If the overweight want to change, it should ONLY be because they want and need it for their own healthy and wellbeing, not because some low digit IQ bully dictated it.
Depends. Do they want to do something that might help them avoid random jerks, or would they rather put up with harassment? That’s their call, not mine.
The latter. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out that one way to avoid abuse is to change.
There’s nothing wrong with asking what the victim could’ve done to avoid the situation. A woman who walks down a dark alley at midnight wearing a nightgown and is assaulted isn’t responsible for the assault, but she’d be wise to avoid doing the same thing again. Taking action to avoid harassment doesn’t mean taking the blame for it.
Indeed. There’s no guarantee that changing will solve anything, but if the alternative is do nothing and just hope the problem will go away, well, that’s guaranteed not to solve it.
I don’t think so. There’s no reason we can’t blame the jerk and suggest ways for the victim to avoid being victimized again.
I agree. I don’t think I’ve said it’s the victim’s responsibility to change.
Assuming that he encounters drive by assholes on a regular basis, then sure, he does know whether or not it helps: is he harassed more or less frequently after changing?
Then I guess we’re miscommunicating. My question was not “why do bullies make fun of certain traits but not others?”, it was “why are certain people harassed more than other people?”
Do you think everyone has an equal chance of being harassed, or do you agree that some people are harassed more than others? If the latter, do you think it’s because bullies focus on people who have certain traits, or because they pick victims at random and then make fun of those traits (thus making the all-star quarterback just as likely to be harassed as the geeky fat kid), or is there another explanation?
I got your point, I just think it’s wrong. You’re blaming this on the media, but where’s the evidence that people who aren’t exposed to “the media” don’t care about looks? They may have different standards of beauty, but I don’t think you’ll find any culture where looking beautiful isn’t considered a good thing, whether “beautiful” means having a 24 inch waist or stretching your earlobe with a 6 inch hoop.
I haven’t said it’s the victim’s responsibility. As you said: Don’t twist people’s words around.
Again, I’m not opposed to holding the assholes responsible. If you think I am, I’m sorry you got that impression, and I suggest you read my posts a little more carefully.
What I’m opposed to is the idea that it’s taboo to talk about how someone might have avoided harassment.
I once got into a car accident on the freeway in the winter while driving at a reasonable speed, well below the posted limit, the same speed as everyone else on the road that day. I hit a patch of ice and lost control of the vehicle. Now, I probably could’ve avoided that accident by driving at a ridiculously low speed. Does that make it my fault? No, not according to the county prosecutor, the insurance company, or common sense. But you can be sure that when I drive in the winter now, I’m not thinking “this speed is reasonable, and if anything happens it won’t be my fault, so I don’t need to take any extra precautions”.
I’ve been following this thread for a few days, now. Being overweight, and having been overweight my whole life, I can say I have some experience with the behavior that Yosemite has been discussing.
In my opinion the worst part of changing to remove a bully’s focus is that after a certain point, it is impossible for the victim of bullying to believe that any change has been sufficient or signifigant. In high school I weighed about 220 lbs, at 5’9". After college I decided to enlist in the Navy and had to lose weight to do that. I fought, struggled and clawed my way down to 170 lbs. And stayed around 200 lbs for about two years. And you know what?
During that whole time, my self-image never changed - so I was still the same fat person I’d always been. Not a little overweight, not a pot-belly, just straight obese. So, of course, all the benefits that I was looking for with my weight loss (being able, for instance, to approach attractive women without sticking both feet in my mouth.) were completely lacking. Unlike most people, AIUI, I didn’t give a damn about the health benefits. Sure I liked being that healthy, but I never liked the exercise I needed to stay that healthy. Keeping myself at 200 required jogging 4.5 miles 4 times a week, and eating like a bird. Bugger that nonsense. Of course, particularly galling was getting harassed while exercising. What the Hell is someone thinking to yell, “Out of the road, lardbutt!” when someone is doing a 10K? And they’re already far to the right and out of the way of as many people as possible.
Besides, should I have managed to even change that one factor of mine I’d still have stuck out. I wear glasses. I use, to quote people who have accused me of being snobbish, big words. I also have more body hair than some apes. I even laugh like a fag, apparantly (whatever the Hell that might mean.) All of these traits are things that I’ve been harassed for, and that I could change.
I’m not about to, however. I tried changing once, and the effort involved was totally out of proportion for the benefits recieved. I’ll remain myself, with my glasses, body hair, weight, odd laugh, and enjoyment of a complex vocabulary.
If that means that some people will tell me that I must like the abuse - so be it. At this point, I refuse to change myself for any one else’s definition of what a proper way to look, sound or act might be. I may be starting a new weight loss program - but I’ll be doing it for some real benefits, not in any hopes of changing my self-image.
So essentially you’d tell them, “Stop being who you are, and you don’t have to put up with the harassment.” Gee, like that’s such a great choice.
Where do you draw the line? Is any little unique quirk about someone something that they should consider changing, just because the jerks pick up on it? Should a curvy woman (whose spouse and loved ones feel looks “just right”) have to starve herself, just so that some assholes who think she’s “too fat” won’t bother her any more? Is this a reasonable solution? Is it a reasonable solution to tell the gay person who “looks” gay in some way that they should try really hard to “look” straight? Would you shrug your shoulders at peopple who are not willing to make these changes, and tell them, “Sad times”?
Except that changing doesn’t really stop the abuse, and also sometimes takes away from the person, making them something that they are not, nor should never want to be. How is that really better? “Stop being who you are and start being something that you are not, and that makes you miserable, and you won’t get abuse”? This is essentially what you are suggesting for some people.
I don’t think a habit of walking down unsafe streets is quite the same thing is being something. Like, being big-busted, being a drag queen, being gay, being overweight. Also, how far do you want to take that? For instance, should a woman with big breasts always wear baggy, loose clothing, just to avoid assholes’ comments? Should she get a breast reduction?
I don’t think people here are talking about doing nothing. I think they are talking about not pointing the finger at the victim, and assuming that the victim’s actions should be the focus of attention.
Sometimes you have to make hard choices in life. Even if you don’t talk about them, that doesn’t make them go away.
She should ask herself whether it’s more trouble to lose weight or put up with harassment, or if there’s some other way she can avoid harassment. Really, this seems like common sense - either do something or don’t.
Depends. Is there another way for them to avoid harassment? If not, then their choice is, obviously, between changing and maybe still having to put up with harassment, or not changing and definitely having to. Simple, really. I wouldn’t use those exact words if it were someone I cared about, but I wouldn’t avoid the underlying reality.
Three of those can be changed. Whether they should be is something for the individual to decide, not me or you.
That’s a choice for her to make. All I’m saying it it’s not unreasonable to discuss those options. If her goal is to avoid harassment, she should consider all the possibilities that might help her reach that goal, instead of ignoring some just because someone told her “if you even think about changing yourself, you’re blaming the victim.” Simple pragmatism.
Well then, I guess we’re in agreement after all. Surely you don’t think it’s impossible to think about what the victim could do to help as well as what the bully should do to stop being a jerk.
Well, there’s a lot more to that than weight. I’m 5’9" and 170, and I’ve never been able to approach attractive women without sticking a foot or two in my mouth.
Good for you, and I mean that seriously. This is exactly what I’ve been suggesting: consider all your options. You did that, chose one, didn’t like the results, and went back.
Good grief. Do you seriously think that when someone has been harassed for being too fat, too gay, too geeky, that it has never crossed their minds that they could eleminate these factors from their lives? Of course this occurs to people. But most reject it, because 1) they’re not the ones with the “problem,” 2) they may be worse off in some way if they do change, 3) it probably won’t make any difference anyway.
My OP has been about how people direct their attention to the victim, as in “What did you do?” and “Why don’t you change?” as if that’s the main problem. But it isn’t. And in most cases, it is in no way reasonable.
Oh, it’s all so simple. But you forgot one very likely possibility: They change, they are unhappy with the change (they didn’t want to do it in the first place) and they still get harassed.
I don’t know if a drag queen can really ever stop wanting to dress up as a woman, and I don’t think it’s really appropriate to suggest a drag queen to change. Apparently you and others would disagree. Also, a gay person can stop “acting” gay and start “acting” straight, can they not? They can stop being seen with their SO out in public–heck, they can simply stop seeing anyone of the same sex, and start dating the opposite sex. That would help stop the harassment, wouldn’t it?
Discuss something that came to her mind probably as soon as she started to get harassed, and that she has rejected because she knows it is unreasonable for her to change, or unjust for her to have to change.
But what you are suggesting as “help” is very likely not that helpful at all.
In that case, they can cross off that possibility. If there’s nothing else they can do to stop the harassment, then they’re done, they know the problem will never go away, and they can go about learning to deal with it. If there is something else they can do, then they can start doing it. What matters is they’re being proactive instead of expecting the world to change around them.
If I’m sitting at home, and I see a semi truck careening off the road and towards my house, isn’t it unjust for me to have to move? It’s my house, and that truck ought to stay on the road. I should be able to stay at home and not be disturbed by any vehicles crashing through the wall. But sometimes, one’s sense of justice must give way to pragmatism.
No, they can start making the harasser accountable. They can make a stink. They can get together and discuss how to make more assholes accountable in the future. They are even, (Heaven forbid) entitled to get angry and vent.
They don’t have to meekly change whatever arbitrary thing that has offended the asshole, and tolerate the umpteenth useless question, such as, “What did you do”? and “How can you change?” with patience.
“The world to change around them”? No. How about “stop letting assholes get away with it”?
You’re talking about an accident, not a willful act of assholishness. It is not unreasonable to expect and demand that assholes stop being assholes. It is not reasonable to put the obligation for change on the victim.
Come to think of it, it is not reasonble to expect someone’s house to not be in the path of a truck with bad brakes, or whatever. Sure, you get out of the way to preserve your life, but that is not a long-term solution. If trucks with bad brakes were never expected to to have good brakes or to drive responsibly, but instead everyone and everything was expected to get out of their way every time, (as in, “Well, why don’t you move your house?” “Where was your house located, that it attracted the careening truck?”), then nothing changes.
Mr2001 I appreciate your pragmatic approach, I really do, and your arguments make me think of various speech impediments, the eradication of which an entire branch of education is devoted. A lateral lisp would probably fit nicely into this discussion as it would draw tons of teasing while not really hurting or offending anyone. So why do we insist that kids train themselves to speak in standard ways? So that they will fit, not get teased, go far in life, etc.
That said, I still stop short of any suggestion that change should come as a direct result of harassment, potential or otherwise. I guess I’m playing idealist here, but I believe that we can operate on a higher level in theory, even if practicalities drive us to sand off all the bumpy parts of ourselves so’s we don’t stick out and get picked on. Then I hope that theory manages to make its way into practice so future generations of large, small, fat, skinny, buckteeth, myopics with funny hair can get down to the business of life without having to justify their stubborn unwillingness to conform every time some asshole chucks a beer can at them.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that a person’s top goals for a good life or the rationale for surgery should never be “avoid being harassed”. That’s just pitiful. Pitiful for us, not for them.
Funny how you clipped out the part of my post that addressed this very thing. What a strange coincidence! You can use your browser’s scroll bar to read it again, but just in case your mouse is broken, I’ll repeat it: “If there is something else they can do, then they can start doing it.”
Good to see you’re having fun with the analogy. The important thing is that you’ve accepted the moral of it: Get out of the way first and gripe about the irresponsible driver later.
Thank you.
OK, fair enough. If the only good reason for making a change is to avoid harassment, there’s probably a better alternative.
