It's official: Yasser Arafat's belongings were contaminated with polonium

And of course we are not talking about this amount of polonium. We are talking about this amount of radiation measured which was within the range expected for background radiation and instrumental error, thus they conclude that there is no evidence sufficient to conclude that there is any 210Po in the subject.

To be precise their findings do not rule out that there was 210Po there. It’s been a long time and it may have decayed below the level that it would produce enough radiation to be above background radiation variation and above instrumental error bars. All they can say is that this study of two skull fragments and two extremity fragments provides no substantiation of any 210Po being there now or of poisoning by 210Po at a previous date. Which is what they said.

Again, Honesty honest mistake was not understanding units. (S)he stated

The results on the four samples (two skull, two extemity) in fact ran from 0.2 to 1.4 mBq/g. That’s mBq, which is 0.001Bq. 1 MBq of radioactivity, that’s 1,000,000 Bq, is the equivalent of 1 microgram of polonium chloride. 1 mBq (not mEq) is actually equivalent to 0.000000001 microgram of polonium. These are very very very low levels of radiation reported, levels consistent with background radiation noise and machine static.

That’s the perspective that is accurate to keep it in.

Honesty claiming that he/she said something other than what he/she actually plainly said is just making shit up.

I know that somebody brought it up. I just don’t care. It doesn’t matter at all about levels safe in drinking water from the EPA. It only matters what is expected of background radiation for sample taken from a tomb in Ramallah.

And you’re right, I only read the parts of the thread that interest me. I did read the Russian report. It stated the results were inconclusive. It stated why and described their models. They made it clear that their result is inconsistent with the hypothesis that Arafat was poisoned by polonium. They also made it clear that the conditions under which they took the measurements were far from ideal.

Frankly, I just thought the rest of the noise about water and natural background radioactivity from this source versus that source to be completely useless and stupid. I am only concerned with the natural background radiation of Arafat’s tomb and the natural background radiation of toothbrushes. I am concerned with the studies that provided the best analysis and design.

Due to time constraints I have only read the Russian report in full. I look forward to reading the Swiss one.

Yeah why not? I don’t see the harm in it as long as you remember the experts’ interpretation. For example, the expert interpretation I am most curious about is the Canadian researcher quoted in Jackmanii’s last post. It said something to the effect that levels of polonium in Arafat’s clothing were anomalous. I want to know the reason for that statement.

Anyway, maybe something educational will come of all this math flying around. I am decidedly not on any side in this debate but as I read it I see errors and assumptions crop up that make no sense to me. When these errors and assumptions are made against the Swiss study, and the Swiss study holds up against these erroneous ideas, it seems more impressive to me. So maybe I am just on the side of the Swiss study.

Terr, this is nothing personal - I like you and have nothing against you personally - but I’ve been hammering at this thread for weeks and we’re approaching >300 posts; I’m tired of being goal-posted by people who (which includes you, unfortunately) don’t know what they’re talking about. Thus, this will be my last reply to you (as well as DSeid and Jackmannii for that matter) in this thread.

It’s been fun, look forward to debating with (or against) you in the future.

I’ll answer, but this’ll be the last and final goalpost for me.

Tobacco is a plant that has a high tolerance for heavy metals and it absorbs these metals from its environment. Specifically, the EPA attributes the presence of polonium in tobacco from the industry’s use of radon fertilizer. Thus, the polonium in cigarettes are due to the purposeful and artificial addition of radon and phosphates into soil and do not represent the natural accumulation of polonium from the Earth’s crust or atmosphere.

Have a good week.

  • Honesty

This from a man who claimed, with a straight face, that “The proper conversion between Bq and mBq is 1Bq = 0.000001 mBq.”?

That’s not what your reference says.

It does indicate that use of phosphate fertilizers is a mechanism by which radium and its decay products accumulate in soil. But it’s not the only one. From your link:

“The tobacco leaves used in making cigarettes contain radioactive material, particularly lead-210 and polonium-210. The radionuclide content of tobacco leaves depends heavily on soil conditions and fertilizer use.”

…Lead-210 and Polonium-210 can be absorbed into tobacco leaves directly from the soil. But more importantly, fine, sticky hairs (called trichomes) on both sides of tobacco leaves grab airborne radioactive particles." (bolding and italics added).

Maybe this can be handwaved away, in the manner of Russian control samples which-aren’t-really-controls-because-I-say-they’re-calibration-standards, but I don’t think that flies here either.

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Maybe this can be handwaved away, in the manner of Russian control samples which-aren’t-really-controls-because-I-say-they’re-calibration-standards, but I don’t think that flies here either.
[/QUOTE]

I had to chuckle at this because they are calibration standards! A control is not hidden as prose in the methods section, it is in the data itself. I know this’ll annoy you to hear but it’s true: there were no controls in the Russian study. The Russians simply measured the radioactivity, recorded the results, then pontificated for several pages on why he couldn’t have died of polonium. In addition to this, the quality of the science was poor, the authors, at one point even say that their result might be the result of “instrumentation errors and natural background”. Who says that? If its an instrumentation error, fix your machine. If the latter is the case, why did the Russians performed only one sample in triplicate*? This is an explicit no-no in science because the more times you make an observation the more accurate that observation. All samples should’ve been measured *at least *three times and standard deviations should’ve been provided. The paper does not provide the date the materials were tested either. This is needed because how can one accurately calculate the half-life if the date of the experiment(s) aren’t provided. Lastly, the Russians talk of an appendices but there is none. This is very important because the Russians were presumably given not just the bones of Mr. Arafat but clothes as well. I want to know the values for the articles of clothing.

  • Triplicate: make three independent observations of sample.

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
It does indicate that use of phosphate fertilizers is a mechanism by which radium and its decay products accumulate in soil. But it’s not the only one. From your link:

“The tobacco leaves used in making cigarettes contain radioactive material, particularly lead-210 and polonium-210. The radionuclide content of tobacco leaves depends heavily on soil conditions and fertilizer use.”

…Lead-210 and Polonium-210 can be absorbed into tobacco leaves directly from the soil. But more importantly, fine, sticky hairs (called trichomes) on both sides of tobacco leaves grab airborne radioactive particles." (bolding and italics added).
[/QUOTE]

The Master Speaks: Does organically grown tobacco lower the chance of lung cancer?

Dear Cecil:

Since Alexander Litvinenko’s death there’s been a lot of talk about polonium-210, the radioactive material that killed him. This brought to light another issue seldom discussed in the media – that** tobacco contains high levels of the stuff, due to chemical fertilizers**. In 1990 Surgeon General C. Everett Koop went on record stating that radiation from tobacco was responsible for approximately 90 percent of tobacco-related cancers. So I ask you, Cecil: what’s the straight dope on this? Does smoking organically grown tobacco instead of commercially grown tobacco lower the chance of lung cancer?

— DM, via e-mail

(bolding mine)

Nothing in the world, DM, is so powerful as an idea that tells people exactly what they want to hear, and by this standard the notion that fertilizer-borne polonium might be the truly lethal ingredient in cigarettes is a blue-ribbon champ. Smokers are thrilled to learn it’s not the tobacco itself that’s murdering them, while hemp advocates see an argument for weed’s relative safety. Anticorporate types get another tale of ghoulish multinationals swigging the peons’ blood; conspiracy freaks get another instance where They keep us from discovering What’s Really Going On. The only problem: beyond a few key nuggets of truth, the story doesn’t hold up.

The radioactive metal polonium occurs in nature as a result of the decay of uranium; radon is another stage in the same process. Polonium-210, the isotope in question, isn’t too harmful when outside your body because it emits only alpha radiation, which is easily blocked by skin. But once inside it packs a serious radioactive punch. Thankfully, it’s usually found in extremely low concentrations, but as I discussed in a recent column on poisons, doses measured in the millionths of a gram can still kill you, while long-term low-grade exposure causes cancer.

Nugget of truth number 1 is that yes, there’s polonium-210 in tobacco (as well as radioactive lead-210). It’s mainly absorbed from the soil, though some amount of polonium-bearing dust adheres to tobacco’s unusually sticky leaves. Nugget 2 is that yes, using phosphate fertilizers increases the polonium content of tobacco, as mineral phosphate can contain significant amounts of uranium, and thus more of its decay products. None of this has been hushed up, or at least not well - researchers were reporting polonium-210 in cigarette smoke back in the early 60s, and the studies are easy to find online. Decades of small-animal testing shows a connection between inhaled polonium and lung tumors, although the relation between dose and response isn’t always tidy.

But tobacco’s hardly the only place one encounters polonium. Other plants absorb it too, meaning it’s in the food we eat, possibly as much as 20 cigarettes’ worth in a day’s intake; at any given time our bodies contain about 23,000 cigarettes’ worth of polonium, largely in the liver, kidneys, spleen, and bone marrow. Granted, if you smoke as well as eat, your cancer risk likely goes up, but what part of that concept isn’t widely understood?

It’s true that polonium-210 seems to be more carcinogenic when inhaled than when ingested, possibly because it concentrates at forks in the bronchial tubing, creating “hot spots” of radioactivity. Sounds grim, but remember, we’re talking about cigarette smoke here - it’s an all-star team of things that are very bad for you. The National Cancer Institute has identified 20 smoke components that “convincingly cause lung tumors,” among which polonium doesn’t rank high. And a 1999 Washington Post Magazine article on a Philip Morris scientist turned whistle-blower names nitrogen compounds called nitrosamines as the big cancer culprits.

Generally the cancer risk due to polonium-210 inhalation is believed to be quite small. Doctors writing to the New England Journal of Medicine in 1982 compared the radiation exposure from smoking a pack and a half daily to getting 300 chest x-rays in a year, but (a) that’s really not so much radiation and (b) they still couldn’t assess the resulting cancer threat.

The alleged claim by C. Everett Koop that radioactivity causes 90 percent of tobacco-related cancer has so far resisted the tracking skills of my research team (it’s all over the Web, typically attributed to a Koop appearance “on national television”), but if he said it, it’s way off from what everyone else says - including surgeon generals’ reports from before, during, and after his tenure. The U.S. National Council on Radiation Protection and Management estimates that if you’ve smoked for 50 years, polonium-210 accounts for 1 percent of your overall lung cancer risk. According to data from Argonne National Laboratories, the chances of polonium causing fatal cancer in a two-pack-a-day smoker after 25 years may be less than one in 1,000; by contrast, World Health Organization figures suggest that cigarettes kill about half of all smokers, with half of those deaths coming in middle age. So sure, maybe you can improve your odds a bit by going organic, but basically a smoker demanding a polonium-free cigarette is like a suicide insisting on using a polonium-free bullet.

— Cecil Adams

  • Honesty

[QUOTE=Honesty]
this’ll be the last and final goalpost for me.I had to chuckle at this because they are calibration standards!
[/quote]
Except the report does not refer to them as instrument calibration standards. It mentions measurements compared to known values. Sounds like controls.

Scientists who are honest about the potential for confounding factors always look for and mention reasons that their observations might not be valid. In fact, the Swiss did this too to some extent, which hasn’t prevented enthusiasts from taking their report well beyond its conclusions.

It is amusing that, having presented a cite in an effort to show that polonium levels in tobacco come entirely from chemical fertilizer, you first overlooked that the cite specifically refers to other factors (soil variation, atmospheric absorption) important in polonium uptake, and now you’re trying to impeach your own EPA cite (using Cecil no less).

I suspect they’ll continue to move for quite some time.

Duck sounds like fuck but they’re completely different. Similarly, an analytical standard is not the same as a control.

Impeachment, eh?

[QUOTE= Honesty]
Tobacco is a plant that has a high tolerance for heavy metals and it absorbs these metals from its environment. Specifically, the EPA attributes the presence of polonium in tobacco from the industry’s use of radon fertilizer. Thus, the polonium in cigarettes are due to the purposeful and artificial addition of radon and phosphates into soil and do not represent the natural accumulation of polonium from the Earth’s crust or atmosphere.
[/QUOTE]

(bolding mine)

[QUOTE=EPA]
The tobacco leaves used in making cigarettes contain radioactive material, particularly lead-210 and polonium-210. The radionuclide content of tobacco leaves depends heavily on soil conditions and fertilizer use.

Soils that contain elevated radium lead to high radon gas emanations rising into the growing tobacco crop. Radon rapidly decays into a series of solid, highly radioactive metals (radon decay products). These metals cling to dust particles which in turn are collected by the sticky tobacco leaves. The sticky compound that seeps from the trichomes is not water soluble, so the particles do not wash off in the rain. There they stay, through curing process, cutting, and manufacture into cigarettes.Lead-210 and Polonium-210 can be absorbed into tobacco leaves directly from the soil. But more importantly, fine, sticky hairs (called trichomes) on both sides of tobacco leaves grab airborne radioactive particles.

For example, phosphate fertilizers, favored by the tobacco industry, contain radium and its decay products (including lead-210 and polonium-210). When phosphate fertilizer is spread on tobacco fields year after year, the concentration of lead-210 and polonium-210 in the soil rises.
[/QUOTE]

(font increase mine)

[QUOTE=Cecil Adams]
The alleged claim by C. Everett Koop that radioactivity causes 90 percent of tobacco-related cancer has so far resisted the tracking skills of my research team (it’s all over the Web, typically attributed to a Koop appearance “on national television”), but if he said it, it’s way off from what everyone else says - including surgeon generals’ reports from before, during, and after his tenure.** The U.S. National Council on Radiation Protection and Management estimates that if you’ve smoked for 50 years, polonium-210 accounts for 1 percent of your overall lung cancer risk.** According to data from Argonne National Laboratories, the chances of polonium causing fatal cancer in a two-pack-a-day smoker after 25 years may be less than one in 1,000; by contrast, World Health Organization figures suggest that cigarettes kill about half of all smokers, with half of those deaths coming in middle age. So sure, maybe you can improve your odds a bit by going organic, but basically a smoker demanding a polonium-free cigarette is like a suicide insisting on using a polonium-free bullet.
[/QUOTE]

(bolding mine; Hint: non-fertilizer grown tobacco and polonium-free cigarettes)

Honesty continues to amuse! Now back with extra monster fonts - as if shouting something that he/she does not understand makes it say something it does not!

Note that Honesty has previously stated that there is no chance any polonium should be in samples from the environment. Which of course was immaterial but still funny that he/she now cites something (a complete unedited Cecil column, really, a quote and a link would do!) that discusses how

Also that he/she somehow thinks that a SD column stating that

means that the only source of Po in tobacco (or other plants) is from phophate fertilizer. In point of fact such is not the case.

Oh. I should quote that in a way that Honesty can grok*:

:slight_smile:
To put it very simply: polonium is rare in the crust and fairly common on the surface as radon that has diffused into the atmosphere decays into it and it then settles out, landing on the surface and on broadleaf plants which we eat and some of us (not me) smoke.

Polonium also gets concentrated in seaweeds and algae, and with wide variation in the species that feed on them. More on polonium!

Please note: the average median daily dietary intake of 210Po is 160 mBq/d. Well more than 10 times the amount that Honesty tried to tell us was “very high.”

Jackmannii, the sad thing is that I do not think Honesty’s lack of understanding things like why scientists always need to note what the limit of their measuring tools are, and need to spend reasonable effort being sure that they are hearing signal rather than noise and not imagining patterns in random inkblots. It is vital to know when typical noise (static if you will) in the measuring device could reasonably look the same as what is being measuring as possible signal. He/she is just more irrationally sure than most that he/she is actually the one who understands it all.

*I thought about putting in a superfluous spoiler box but only after I posted it!

To my non-scientist mind, if the signal is so tiny as to be indistinguishable from noise, there is no real way to tell if there is a “signal” at all.

Just to make this clear. While Cecil does make mistakes (gasp! say it aint so!) this is not one of them. Despite Honesty’s ongoing confusion about what things actually say compared to what he/she thinks they say, Cecil does not claim that organic tobacco would be polonium-free. Cecil just makes the point that the polonium on/in the tobacco is not the big problem with tobacco. Trying to place the polonium in perspective.

On preview - yup. Malthus, that does seem a pretty basic concept, doesn’t it? If you cannot tell signal from noise with some reasonable degree of confidence then you cannot claim any signal exists.

Agreed, it’s possible to lose a very real signal in a bunch of noise. Look at this thread for an example.

Of course. The fact that the signal can’t be found isn’t proof positive it was never there in the first place.

I assume that, given the half-life of Polonium, it may be (for example) entirely possible for Arafat to have been poisioned with it and then for the polonium to have decayed to the extent that not enough is left to reliably measure.

Another fun fact!

Each cigarette delivers an average of 16.6 mBq of polonium (more than was possibly contained in the highest measured skull fragment that had a “very high” amount of polonium in it according to Honesty).

About smoking products made with “organic” tobacco - the sad thing is that I’ve seen seed catalogues feature “organic” “natural” varieties while subtly suggesting that growing and smoking them is healthier for you than smoking commercial tobacco products.*

Aaagh!

Now I’ve gotta go detox.

*given that tobacco plants harbor polonium-210 in their leaves, the amount of exposure for tobacco farmers through harvesting, processing and curing must be considerably more than the rest of us get, even before taking smoking into account.

In the interest of congenial discourse, I would hope that in future posters can eschew Monster Fonts, as they are no better than the dreaded ALL CAPS and it is not necessary to shout (particularly when shouting does not improve the points one is attempting to make).

I hope you realize that that technique subtracts from, rather than adding to, your credibility. Seriously, Stoid, don’t do that.

I was making a dumb joke speaking more to tobacco plants, poor math, water, the substitution of imagination for fact in the conditions of Arafat’s burial, and so on.

I agree with you completely both here and in your last post and so do the Russians in their own words. It’s the unsatisfying thing you’re left with when results are inconclusive.

In all honesty I am beginning to think that there simply isn’t an easy way to separate the French interpretation of their data from the Swiss version of their data.

What we’ll have in the end are two camps of people: those who think the data suggests Israel killed Arafat using polonium or Israel killed Arafat using some other means (that was a joke as well).

А если в кране нет воды -
Воду выпили жиды.
Если ж в кране есть вода -
Значит, жид нассал туда.

Stoid? Really?

Cute.

And btw, no need to whisper, we can ignore you fine.

Yes, I know this aside into tobacco and polonium is a bit of noise but dayum, when Honesty cites and quotes even:

and yet thinks that shows that polonium is there exclusively because of added phosphate fertilizers … well it requires comment.

The signal of this thread was long ago finished:

Mr. Arafat died. His illness course was consistent with a series of events triggered by a severe enterocolitis but the cause of the enterocolitis was not determined. His death was clinically not consistent with what is known about polonium poisoning, most importantly in that he had no evidence of any myelosuppression. The team who believe that he may have died of polonium poisoning hypothesize that perhaps he did not develop myelosuppression because he had an aged hypocellular marrow and/or the polonium, for unclear reasons, avoided the bone in this particular case. Those extremely speculative hypotheses are however falsified - completely ruled out: we have reports that his marrow was “very rich”, not hypocellular; and the case for his being poisoned seems to rest primarily on claimed evidence of residual polonium in the bones, in particular the marrow rich bones. Thus clearly the polonium did not somehow avi=oid the bones and the marrow. If the signal is real, then the polonium was in his marrow producing bones in a large amount. If the signal is just noise then we have pretty much nothing to support the polonium poisoning hypothesis.

Noise is what the other two teams each believe they are looking at; only the team funded by Arafat’s widow and the PA believe they might possibly be looking at a real signal.

The other independent line, the one that provoked the tsts done above, is that artifacts (that have had no chain of cusody) have evidence suggestive of polonium having been there.

The rest is noise.

Inbred, that may be a joke but it is not far off from how some people seem to think. Personally I think that Israel had no particular good motivation to kill him, would have been stupid to kill him, and if they were going to would have used one of their usual blunter methods. Other actors, IMHO, had more motivation and had potential Russian mentors who could have aided in the attempt in a known Russian eans of assasination. That said Israel has done some pretty damn stupid things that go against what I would see as their best interests. If Arafat had had myelosuppression the bar of evidence required to strongly suspect that someone killed him with polonium would be very low. But the fact that he had a “rich marrow” while allegedly having had large amounts of polonium in his marrow producing bones is overwhelming evidence against death by polonium. Having that circumstance makes an allegation of polonium poisoning an extraordinary claim in deed and we have nothing even remotely close to extraordinary evidence to support it. Those who believe that such occurred are indeed those who already “know” that Israel killed him and who see anything claiming otherwise as the extraordinary claim.