And all this time, I thought a murderer was someone who had committed murder! Guess I’d better catch up on these new thoughtcrime laws. :rolleyes:
On our side of the pond, you’re not allowed to shoot someone because he’s taking your stuff. We don’t have the death penalty, particularly not for theft. We’re definitely not allowed to shoot someone just because they’re running away with our TVs or other stuff we own. That kind of vigilantism would probably be prosecuted as murder or, if the thief survives, attempted murder.
On our side of the pond, if you’re claiming self defense as a mitigating circumstance for violence, the force and amount of violence you applied has to be proportional to the attack you experienced. That means that you can’t kill or seriously maim someone unless your life actually is endangered or you have a very good reason to believe that your life was endangered, and your actions were necessary to ward off that danger. Some random, scary-looking person just entering my house uninvited doesn’t give me the right to shoot him and claim self defense.
ETA: And taking your gun out of the safe before an actual attack on your person or family would probably be regarded as premeditation to murder.
I’m happy with that. YMMV.
They wouldn’t have sued the guy.
The type of guy who walks down streets in Trenton whacking at cars with a sledgehammer is not the same type who has any assets to sue for. Not exactly a fat cat CEO type, if you kow what I mean.
No. I don’t have any solution. The best course of action is to do what my brother did, i.e. nothing.
In my experience, and that of other people I know, in after-the-fact calls for minor crimes, the police are useless.
I suspect anyone expecting to find much more than “tend” in studies on complex social issues is going to be disappointed. Besides, the point really was that it suggests that gun ownership does not prevent burglaries. That’s not to say it’s not a flawed study, but that’s the relevant part of the conclusion.
I’m picturing you on your bed with a pile of laptops and TVs beside you, stroking your gun 
That used to be the way to think about it. Nowadays, the thug will shoot or cut you just for the hell of it. Your life is at risk. Act accordingly.
If someone is in my house, uninvited, they have broken in. I’m not going to try and read the guy’s mind and figure out if he’s just here for the laptop or if he’s here to do me or my loved one bodily harm. That’s a gamble I’m not willing to take, I’m going to assume he’s here to do bodily harm and act accordingly. It has nothing to do with defending property.
Is there good cause for the assumption being made throughout this thread that doing what the police would do, i.e. using the threat of the gun to neutralize the burglar without shooting, is not a practical option?
WTF?
Cue British Butler voice
Wait Mr. Rapist/Serial Killer/Robbery/Asshole . Let me go to get my gun out of the safe before we continue this social interaction. Thank you very much.
Because most people aren’t trained to properly restrain someone, have back up able to be called in at a moments notice, or have a pair of handcuffs or flex cuffs (and I mean real flex cuffs like the police use, regular zip ties can be broken, some rather easily) hanging from their belt for easy access.
The only safe way a regular person could use a gun to neutralize a burglar without shooting is to keep it trained on the criminal from a safe distance. Even then a particularly violent or desperate person is probably going to try to take your firearm away from you rather than meekly wait on the floor for the cops to show up.
In this situation, I am protecting my “stuff,” of that there is no doubt; however, that’s not why I’d be willing to pull the trigger. It’s not worth taking a life to protect “stuff” in general…rather, my pulling the trigger is the direct consequence of his choice to be a reprobate that believes it’s okay to break into a place and take someone else’s stuff. It’s a subtle difference, but an important one. It’s not about the “stuff,” it’s about the criminal.
If you can do it that way, hey, sure, preferred result.
But the threat must not be an empty one. You do not draw your weapon on someone or something you are not prepared to take down. So using the threat of the gun to deter the burglar requires you to be willing to fire for effect.
On SDMB and elsewhere, police officers and other people who claim to know about this sort of thing have said that a person with a knife or similar weapon within 20’ can close that distance and kill you before you can shoot them.
There’s not enough room for two people to be 20’ away from each other in my house. Therefore, unless the housebreaker has his hands up in the universal posture of surrender or is prone/facing away, it’s reasonable to assume he has the ability to kill me before I can stop him.
The safest thing for a burglar to do, once he realizes the homeowner is aware of his presence, is to throw up his hands and run away. Anything else is ambiguous as to his intentions.
Well, our bedroom is also the home office, and I am handicapped and use a wheelchair, so the only reason to go into the rest of the house is to cook and eat meals, or use the bathroom, so use whatever image amuses you. The only valuable in the other parts of the house is a single older TV/DVD combo player. [When we have visitors it usually is not to watch TV]
Of course. I’m just saying, maybe for those who have a gun and say they will use it, there is perhaps an option where you protect all innocents and property without harming the intruder. I think that is the approach I would use against someone not posing a very immediate threat to anyone’s safety, if ever somehow in that position.
That’s with a holstered gun. What if you’re pointing the gun, safety off, with the ability to shoot as fast as your reactions will allow? This might require some degree of practice with using the gun, but if you’re going to own a gun you ought to at least achieve some degree of proficiency with it. I’m sure it won’t be possible in all situations.
Based on what I’ve read on this board recently it sounds like running away won’t do you much good at all.
Ah, missed the holstered gun distinction. In that case, a clearly unarmed burglar wouldn’t be shot if he didn’t advance, if I’m the homeowner.
Maybe we’re reading different threads, but it seems the vast majority of posters here are on the “don’t shoot a fleeing burglar” side of the fence.
Agreed. I’m referring to the leaf blower incident upthread and this thread.
Shooting a kid in the back who has stolen a leaf blower from your neighbor = most uncool. ( I believe most agree. )
Personally, sitting at the dinner table & the door is kicked in, male or female, any age able to do that, will be made forever cold as fast as I can make it happen.
Made this decision young, trained for it. I’m not stupid enough to think that extremely unlikely things would not ever happen to me. And especially that if they did, they all would be on my 70th birthday.
Turns out is was a good plan because me & mine are alive because of it.
So call me names and fear me or hate me, I do not care. I am alive.
Either all life is sacred or no life is. ( I believe the second part is the reality part. ) I live as if I do not have twinkle dust on me & am more likely to have the unlikely happen to me. Quite likely to have people not believe I’m not a threat, ( I am kind of scary looking. ) to be judged by people just like me than hoping I will never be in nor accused of doing something that I did not or am not doing. So I live in such a way that my intentions are very clear. I am not immune to being unjustly judged. I am just unwilling to be a victim.
It is unlikely that I will ever be in a situation that I have not thought about & decided on a good course of action for me. I don’t have to rethink this all the time. Unfolding events will make tweaks to any pre-decided decision as they unfold.
People who think:
(They) will never do that.
No one would do that.
No one sane can think/do that so it is not worth thinking about.
That can’t happen or happen to me.
Etc… Need to be really lucky all their lives & willing to die for their beliefs. If they are lucky, good for them.
Mine choices may get me killed some day but at 69++, so far so good. I do not loose sleep over those who believed I am like most victims.
As I’ve written before, my policy on dealing with burglars is to assume they’ve come to kill us all. Therefore I quietly gather my wife and child in the master bedroom, close and lock the door behind us, and call the police with gun in hand. (Well, actually my wife will presumably have already started calling the police while I was getting the baby. I won’t confront the burglars unless forced, because I am not Batman. We’ll stay in the locked bedroom until absolutely certain the intruders are gone, possibly until the police arrive. The burglars can have anything they want in any other room of the apartment.
But if the burglars force their way into the bedroom, I’m going to shoot them.
Skald, it sounds like you’ve been such a situation before?
This is a judgement call where one has to weigh the relative risks verse the potential consequence. Anyone who says they will categorically say here, ‘take it’ in all situations is being as unrealistic as anyone who says they can and will shoot first and ask questions later. For myself, the line would be coming into my house. Perhaps others don’t have anything worth defending, but I would draw the line into coming into my house with any sort of criminal intent. Not only is my stuff in there, but my family is as well. To me, that’s unacceptable, and I don’t give a rats ass if the assailant is unarmed or not…they are in my freaking house when I and presumably my family is as well. If I can do what Skald the Rhymer says and get my family into a central room and lock the door then well and good…I’d do that. If not, then I’m not just going to stand there, hat in hand, and tell the burglars ‘take it’ if I have any options to defend my family and my stuff. It’s one of those things that you simply can’t plan for every eventuality or permutation of the situation, and instead have to rely on judgement. I’m not going to shoot someone in the back while they flee, but I’m not just going to sit there and hope the burglars are just going to take my stuff and leave peacefully either if I have any other option. YMMV, but I don’t see how this is unreasonable on my part.