Castle theory of guns and protection

Alright so I was educating myself with some high-quality fox news this night and there was especially interesting story. A man who was VERY intoxicated broke into someones house thinking it was his own. The owners of the house shot and killed the baffled intruder. Now this seems reasonable but why was I listening to a debate on whether it was right or not to kill the intruder. They said how could you tell he had an intention on hurting the people? Why would it matter his intentions. If I was woken up by an intruder I would not care whether he/she was planning on hurting me or just blowing off some steam by kicking a door down. An intruder is an intruder, I have a god given right to protect my family and my property and if that means shooting(although I don’t own a gun) the intruder that’s what it means. We need to stop worrying about violating the rights of the violators themselves.

Well yes, but there are some people who believe you should be required to run away if possible. Even if it means abandoning your own home.
The story I read said that the homeowners were yelling at the guy to go away, called 911 (and were on the phone for 4-5 minutes) and didn’t shoot the idiot until he knocked out a window and reached inside the home. To me this is pretty clear cut. Doesn’t matter a bit that the guy “thought he was at the wrong house”. If he was that drunk and stupid, what would he have done to the people who were in “his” house? They had a reasonable fear for their safety and, being already in their own home, no duty to retreat whatsoever.

I view this as a prime example of a good shoot. They didn’t just start blasting away, they called the police and waited long beyond a reasonable amount of time, and they didn’t shoot until he’d actually obtained entry. The homeowners should be given a medal.

Gee, if I thought that an intruder was drunk, mistaken and mostly harmless, I might choose to avoid blowing him away. Just because there is a legal defense doesn’t make it moral.

They didn’t think that at the time.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

What makes you think he’s harmless? Do you have magical psychic powers that allow you to know the intentions of drunk guys breaking through your door? Along with x-ray eyes and a remote BAC detector?

If one person can say he was mostly harmless, I can respond that he would have attacked the people for being in “his” house.

He was drunk, angry, and very dangerous. Happy harmless drunks don’t break in when people are yelling at them to leave.

I’m not going to take either side here; but, I just gotta ask: How the hell, do they know what the dead guy was thinking?

That’s all that matters.

That’s a sad admission of your lack of humanity. You ought to care about another human’s life.

No you don’t. Your property is not worth someone else’s life.

No we don’t.

This argument got carried out, ad nauseum (not that I won’t gladly read it again…) here.

That thread got upwards of 50 pages and 1,000 posts. Most of the ethical scenarios and “But you shouldn’t shoot the poor prison kitty!” / “Reform them, let them steal everything in your home and even let them steal everything in your bedroom, don’t dare shoot an intruder!” / “I’ll defend my house however the fuck I deem necessary” (<-- me) / “I’ll shoot someone who I think is a threat” (<-- also me) / etc. arguments got played out a few dozen times there.

Be prepared for ivan astikov to come regale you with tales from his misspent youth and how people who break into homes only do so to pay for their poor, dying mothers chemotherapy.

You can tell his intentions how?:rolleyes:

That someone doesn’t want to loose (potentially) their life and hard earned items?

No one said they didn’t care, they just care more about protecting themselves, their property, and their family (in no particular order) than avoiding harm to an unlawful intruder.

Yes he does.

Mine is.

Agreed, but worrying about their rights and putting their rights secondary to your protection are two separate issues.

All I’m saying is it’s dark out. Your sleeping and you hear someone try and enter so you call 911, those bastards take too long and your dead or hurt or maybe your prized big screen is take all reasons to use your right to bear arms. At least as we still have it. Let’s look at it in a different way. Say the drunk gets in there and shoots the two people, what’s his defense I got wasted had a 2.1 bac and didn’t meanto? I say we not look at tiny aspects of it and look at the overall situation. Also if I was the dead guy, I would be thinking that instead of going to the bar I’d rather sit at home and hit a bong with michael phelps. Hey, I’ve never heard of an angry stoned person!

With a 2.1 BAC, if you’re alive, much less sober enough to walk, aim a gun, shoot that gun, and do it before I shoot you, you deserve my stuff.

I’m actually adding that to my will right now.

"*Let it henceforth be known that all men sober enough to break into my home and shoot me before I retaliate may take full possession of all my worldly items, bar none.

-Todderbob*"

We just had a thread covering a similar topic. I’m not psychic and am therefore unable to read the soul of another human being. How is the home owner to know that the person breaking into his home was mostly harmless?

If this guy was drunk enough to think the house was his, how is he going to react to YOU in “his home?”

Crossing the threshold uninvited (or attempting to) is a gamble. You’ve got to ask yourself one question, “Do I feel lucky?” Some people are willing to defend hearth and home with lethal force (I am one) others are content to sit and wait for the police, passively accepting whatever fate has in store until they actually show up.

When someone breaks the break the glass to try and get in, I know their intention is to get in. I don’t know if the guy is drunk, mentally deranged, or just evil all I can know is what the immediate situation presents: He wants in and won’t go away.

Yeah, let’s not continue this argument. I say we can move to the other thread if we need to, but no reason for a new 50 page pileup.

This subject is the gift that keeps giving.

FWIW, the situation in the OP sounds like a clean shoot to me. Its too bad that the guy got killed, but from the homeowners perspective he presented a threat. As mentioned, theres a long thread about this already, and I don’t think this story will change the minds or cause anyone there to reconsider their positions no matter what they were.

Well, then, “somebody else” shouldn’t break into my house. The consequences won’t be worth it to him.

http://www.coloradoconnection.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=252001

Here’s some links 1st one has brief audio leading up to and including shooting. The second is a print story detailing the events leading up to it.

Probably based on what he was saying and how he was acting.

If the guy came at me angry, screaming, demanding to know why I’m in his house, I’m going to shoot, probably regretting it later, rather than risk him causing me harm.

If he walks in the door and stands there confused and wondering why I’m in his house, then I’m going to explain that it isn’t his house and he should leave.

The problem being how would you know what they are? Unless you have psychic powers it’s impossible to know what someones intentions are. Even if you know someone fairly well (as opposed to a complete stranger), when you throw alcohol or drugs into the mix it makes people harder to read…and also tends to make them more unstable than they normally would be.

While I’m not trying to be insulting here I’d have to say that the poster you are responding too is probably closer to the real world response of an actual human being than your own.

Why exactly should I care more about another human’s life than my own or my families? If someone breaks into my house then it’s going to be my own life and that of my families that is going to spring foremost to mind…not the life of the guy breaking in. YMMV but you may want to do some research concerning these humans and see what exactly the norm actually is before accusing a poster of having a lack of humanity.

Why? Why is my property (my house, car, possessions) that I have worked for less valuable than the life of the person trying to (potentially) take them away from me? Leaving aside the threat to my life or the lives of my family, why do you suppose that someones life is more valuable than someone else’s stuff? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that no possession, no matter how valuable or necessary is worth any life?

Again, you may want to do some research on these humans and check out what is a normal response in these kinds of circumstances.

I agree…we don’t want to go too far the other way either. But I think we need to put some balance and context into these kinds of discussions instead of trying to paint with such broad brushes or categorically make statements such as the ones you have.

-XT