You wake up at 2am. There are noises coming from the kitchen. You decide to go down and investigate, but first you pick something up to defend yourself with.
You get to the bottom of the stairs, and you see a shadowy figure wearing a mask. Your heart is beating 200 times a minute. You get a sudden rush of adrenalin through your body. The figure turns toward you, and you think he may have a knife in his hand.
If you had picked up a gun to defend yourself with:
You point the gun at the mystery intruder and squeeze the trigger. BANG! A 14 year old boy is lying on the floor, writhing in pain, fatally wounded by a gunshot to the torso. The boy’s family go through hell because they have lost a son.
If you had picked up a golf club to defend yourself with:
You swing the club at the mystery figure. You knock him to the floor. He gets to his feet and runs out the door, not wanting any more of a beating.
The boy eventually gets a decent job, and, as an adult, becomes a productive and responsible member of society.
The boy must have suspected that his chinanagins would lead to a serious reply. He should have been taught better.
How would the house-owner know that they perpetrator wasn’t packing a firearm of his own? The owner would have gone downstairs with his club, but before he could swing, he would have been shot three times.
Private gun-owners need to go through more gun-training/awareness exercizes. That way, they wouldn’t pump a half-dozen bullets into an intruder in a panic. They could direct a warning at them first.
I went shooting today with my husband and some friends. It’s the first time I have ever shot a hand gun. I have shot rifles and shotguns before, but my husband wanted me to know how to handle a hand gun; especially if someone breaks into our house.
If someone ever breaks into my house in the middle of the night, I will not get close enough to were they can hurt me ( a golf club is about three feet, a bit close for comfort).
I will be standing a safe distance away with a gun in hand.
If people want to break into other peoples houses, they better be prepared.
If you don’t want to get hurt or possibly killed, don’t break in where you do not belong.
Alternative A: Kid sees the gun, drops the knife and runs screaming from the home.
Alternative B: You shoot, hitting the perp in the shoulder. The knife falls to the ground. You hold the suspect in your home (at gunpoint) while SO calls police.
Alternative C: You swing the golf club (a pitching wedge). The edge of the club connects with the perp’s skull. He dies. Parents cry, etc.
Alternative D: You swing the golf club and miss. You over-extend on the swing (what with the adrenaline and all) and the perp stabs you before you regain control. You die. SO dies. Your children die. But, the perp’s parents are grateful he’s okay.
Regardless of what the boy did, he did not deserve to lose his life. It doesn’t matter what crime he commits, no one is in a position to judge the worth of someone’s life. If the boy had been packing heat, and the home owner had been carrying his gun, then someone would probably end up getting shot. In any case, this would be a tragedy.
If the home owner had not been carrying, there is a good chance that both the boy and the home owner would have survived. The police would probably have arrested the boy, and justice would have taken it’s course.
This is all hypothetical, of course, but in the balance of things, would this not be a better outcome for all?
If I understand your little scenario correctly, it’s the 14-year old criminal’s fault, not the home-owner. The little shit shouldn’t be breaking into homes. Burglars, be they 14 or 41 years old, know better. Fuck 'em.
What the hell, so long as we’re playing make believe how about this scenario. I go downstairs unarmed and this mystery intruder proceeds to beat me, rape me, then burns the house down murdering me and my children. Wow, make believe is so much fun.
If you shoot and kill the teenage intruder, in most localities, you are almost certainly going to be indicted for at least “assault with a weapon”, and you could end up at worst doing hard time for manslaughter.
If you knock down the teenage intruder with a golf club and he runs away, you are probably completely in the clear, legally speaking.
If people feel that they need guns for self-defense, that’s their choice, and everyone should remain well aware that there are plenty of trigger-happy frightened people out there who have no scruples about trying to kill anybody whom they find even slightly threatening.
But said trigger-happy frightened people should also be aware that in most cases, they do not in fact have a legal right to kill an illegal intruder. On the contrary, very often they will suffer criminal penalties for doing so. Many householders have been quite surprised to learn that saying “It was the criminal’s fault, the little shit shouldn’t have been breaking into homes, fuck 'em” does not in fact constitute a legal justification for killing somebody.
Yes Kimstu, but the fact that (in the hypo in the OP) the perp presented a knife means that he has presented a clear and present danger to the homeowner’s life. This (in every instance I can think of) provides an affirmative defense to the homeowner. If there are any lawyers out there you can correct me, but I do not know of any jurisdiction in America where one can not respond to a lethal threat with lethal force.
It isn’t really a matter or whether or not the kid deserves to lose his life. The real issue is whether or not a reasonable person would feel that his life and or limb were in danger of being lost or there was a danger to a third party.
My goal isn’t to dispense justice. In any self-defesne situation my only goal is to ensure that I’m not in any danger. If I go to check out mysterious noises at night only to be confronted by a masked stranger with an unidentified item in his hand there is a chance that I’ll shoot him. I won’t shoot because I’m angry I’ll shoot because I’m in fear of losing my life or being severly injured.
Sure, it would be better for everyone if the police could come and take this person away. I don’t really want to rely on the police for protection and faced with an intruder I don’t to rely on his good character to protect me.
Do you have some sort of cite to show this to be true?
**
Curious. Attacking a person with a golf club wouldn’t get someone indicted for assault with a weapon at the verst least?
**
An intruder in my home is more then “slightly” threatening. I have no idea what his motives are and it is reasonable for someone to be scared. He might be there for a ham sandwich or he might be there for some rapin and theiving. How am I to know and why should I bear the burden of trying to figure this out while I scared out of my mind?
**
Cite? In all of the 50 states can you tell me which ones are likely to press charges against you for shooting an intruder in your home at night? Certainly not Texas or Louisiana.
The purpose of the scenario is simply to provide a possible real world example of a situation where you would have to make a split second decision - use lethal force or not. I would argue that the decision has to be made on hard evidence that your life is in immediate danger. Note that in the scenario, you only think that you see a knife - you don’t know for sure. Also, how can you possibly know what the intruder’s intentions are? He may only be an opportunistic kid who maybe saw a window open and thought he’d take a look around. If you knew what his intentions were, then there would be no doubt entering your mind, but in the scenario you have no idea what he may do.
ak:the fact that (in the hypo in the OP) the perp presented a knife
Actually, the OP said “you think he may have a knife in his hand”. I took the description to mean that the neighbor kid didn’t actually have a knife, it just looked to you like he might.
MG:Do you have some sort of cite to show [my previous warning about likely criminal charges] to be true?
*Attacking a person with a golf club wouldn’t get someone indicted for assault with a weapon at the verst least? *
It could, but I was assuming that since the kid ran away after illegally entering your house, he was probably not going to report you for assault. If you kill him, though, the cops are definitely gonna be involved.
As for my claim about not necessarily having a legal right to kill an illegal intruder:
No, it is not safe to assume that shooting an intruder will have no legal consequences. You are allowed to use lethal force if you have a “reasonable fear of death or catastrophic harm” from the situation, but don’t take it for granted that the mere presence of an intruder will be considered to constitute such a justification.
Do him a favor and tell this 14 year old to leave my house alone, I will NOT be swinging a golf club as MANY CRIMINALS CARRY GUNS!, it is incredibly hard to know the intentions of someone who would break into someone elses house at 2:00 AM, in your second choice I swing the golf club and he shoots me, I am dead and he goes on to kill my family, boy!, it sure is a good thing that I didn’t kill an “innocent child”!.
See, for me it boils down to this: I refuse to live in a world where I feel a need to carry a gun for protection. If we in fact do live in such a world, and my stubborn insistence on refusing to acknowledge that fact gets me killed, well, at least I have succeeded in not living in such a world.
If that’s only half tongue-in-cheek, then you’re half an idiot. Look, I’m not getting blood all over my nine-iron if there’s a perfectly good firearm in the house.
I think it’s interesting that the OP assumes a gun means deadly force. It doesn’t necessarily.
A) I can shoot an intruder in the legs, and be reasonably assured, or even fire a shot beforehand (In a safe direction) and see if they get spooked.
B) I’m not going to brandish a golf club. If I think someone’s got a knife, and all I have is a golf club, I will definitely hit them with it. I would not do a trial hit with a golf club to see if someone chooses to run away, because if they don’t it will be too late to use the club again. There is less chance of being able to use the golf club a second time(They are not designed to hit people), so I would probably hit someone hard enough to determine that they would be no more threat afterwards.
My conclusion as a gun owner: I am more likely to kill someone instantly with a golf club(i.e. no second chances.) than I am with my pistol(i.e. warning shot, leg shot.).
