A couple weeks ago my 5-year-old daughter answered the door for the LDS missionaries who were just stopping to say hi. She yelled “It’s the Mormons!” and one of the Elders reminded her that she is also a Mormon. So apparently to him, Mormonism is a club membership which one inherits by being born into a covenant, as opposed to an actual set of religious beliefs and practices. Non-believing apostates and their uneducated children are still “Mormons.”
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I think it’s obvious that you and most others are sure you “know” things that you don’t know at all, you assume, since much of what you think you “know” is your opinion based on your speculation and assumption, filtered through your bias.
As long as you continue to assert that “X is factually true” without any plain evidence for it, we will continue to be watching different shows/reading different background information, and be talking about completely different things.
I am talking about what I see, what I hear, and what I read, and I’ve assumed nothing beyond that. I’ve speculated about nothing beyond that. Not because I’m not capable, but because I have seen and heard nothing to encourage me to, because, unlike the women who have appeared on television who are from fundamentalist, coercive, misogynistic cults, these women do not come across as timid, secretive, frightened, robotic or in any other way creepily strange. That would be a clear signal that the truth lies between the lines.
In the same fashion, if their husband seemed secretive, controlling, pushy, or otherwise uptight about his wives, that would be more evidence that the scenario being assumed is probably likely.
But none of that has been in evidence anywhere, either the show itself, Oprah, Nightline… they come across as thoroughly real, relaxed and legitimate. If you plucked the wives out of the poly show and setting indiividually and plopped them down in any other reality show and didn’t tell anyone the facts, no one would say “Oooo…that woman seems weirdly uptight and secretive and Stepford like… I wonder what’s up with her controlling husband?” Not in a million years. And you would never see one of those weird Fundie wives talking or acting the way these wives do. Did you see Christine on one of the last two shows talking about how stupid Kody is and how poly just lets him be stupid in four different ways? And giving him a scolding look that made HIM look like a 5 year old boy being corrected by his mother? You really think Fundie wives and husbands would appear on TV acting that way?
With all due respect to you, Sarah, because you have argued respectfully, I think you really are filtering through a bias and seeing what you expect to see.
He said, and I quote, “mormon fundy.” That means Fundamentalist Mormons, not mainstream Mormons. Do we really need a cite that pedophilia has been a feature of FLDS polygamists? (Though certainly not all of them are, but enough, like Warren Jeffs.)
You are not now nor have you been reading my posts with any care. As Erdosain pointed out- I said"mormon fundy." That means Fundamentalist Mormons, NOT the Mormon Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aka LDS. By and large, I have defended the Mormon Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aka LDS in this thread. Although I am certainly not happy with their position on Gay marriage, the Mormon Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aka LDS has made their opposition to poly marriage very public, and I give them kudos for that.
“Pedophilia” is a pervasive misnomer. In the interests of accuracy, most of what’s been seen in mormon fundamentalist cults has been ephebophilia, or hebephilia, not pedophilia. While still unacceptable in our society, it really isn’t anywhere close to being the same degree of sick and grotesque that true pedophilia is.
Likewise, with all due respect to you, you’re no less prone to filtering through a bias than the rest of us. I agree that these people do not seem like fundies (and I think you’re conflating my opinion with those of some of the other posters in the thread…perhaps showing your own bias regarding people who disagree with you?) I think that in many ways they seem smart and capable, and not cowed in the least. That, however, doesn’t make them happy. As I mentioned in my other post, there is a weird power dynamic that I found to be uncomfortable, and I’m not sure that’s my bias talking. I think that it’s just as easy to have seen this family on Oprah, where they were speaking pretty much in soundbites, conclude that they are happy and normal, and filter through a bias you formed at that time. I think that they are obviously invested in making this seem like a happy and healthy arrangement, and certainly many of their words supported that. But there was a subtext there that I think you are choosing to ignore completely. And honestly, since you came to your conclusion and started this thread in between seeing the Oprah episode and actually watching the show, I think you now have an investment in these people having a happy, healthy relationship and that’s contributing to your own bias.
I never responded fully to your argument that sexual jealousy is an emotion that someone can choose to work through, given a greater benefit. I think after watching this show that it’s never worked through, it’s just expressed in more passive-aggressive ways. You can be sure if my husband was not monogamous, I could and would express my unhappiness with it. But these women really can’t, because it’s the arrangement they all agreed to. So, when they ARE unhappy, they get mad way out of proportion at small things (a tiny little kiss to seal the engagement? come on) and use that as a way of channeling the negative feelings at him. That seems like a crappy way to live for all of them, at least to me. Certainly all relationships have a dose of that to one degree or another, but I think it’s in heavy supply here, and that’s not a healthy way to work through problems, either. And I think that sure, no one is 100% happy with their relationship. There are always power struggles and negotiating, and passive aggression, so these people are no different. But choosing not to see any subtext in what how much of all that there is and what the deeper meaning is to what they are fighting about and why, but rather taking a person’s words in a literal fashion, especially when THEY have an agenda, as this family clearly does, is its own kind of bias.
I think you’re confused. I did not contest your contention; I asked for information in support of it. If I had meant, “I believe you are wrong, DrDeth, and am further contending that pedophilia does not occur among Mormons of any stripe,” I would have written that. Which I didn’t. Well, okay, I did just type that a couple sentences ago but that doesn’t count.
Stoid has already commented on the differences between pedophilia and ephebophilia & r hebephilia, so I won’t bother.
A grown man who has sex with a post-pubescent teenage girl is not a pedophile. And even if Warren Jeffs is a pedophile by the proper definition, that does notmean that all Mormon fundamentalist males are.
It is a common part of that culture to “marry” children when they are as young as 13 or 14. It is fair to call that practice “typical” of the subculture. Whether that technically makes them pedophiles is a pedantic nitpick which is of no value to this discussion.
Are you looking for a cite that all or most FLDS are into teenage girls? Or are you looking for a cite that historically in the U.S. polygamy has been practiced mainly by various religious groups tracing their practices to Joseph Smith, and have frequently done so in such a manner as to coerce teenage girls to marry older men in exchange for a promise of eternal salvation?
Hmm. I don’t like this post one bit. Sounds like you are trying to compare the idea that one may feel a woman has a right to any choice to the idea that a kid has a right to any choice. Hope I’m misunderstanding the sarcasm.
I don’t understand your objection. These women are functionally no different than the teenagers when it comes to this alleged “choice.” They are brainwashed from birth to believe that no other choice is morally acceptable.
I have to agree with Dio on this. Skald, does the label really matter if we can agree that grown-ass men marrying 12-, 13-, and 14-year-olds is morally and legally wrong?
It’s necessarily impossible to do a statistical analysis of the sexual activities of a closed religious society. However, I’m confident that the majority of FLDS polygamist men are probably not “pedophiles” or “ephebophiles” or whatever you want to call it. However, it is a closed, insular society where the patriarch wields absolute authority and there is a rapacious demand for nubile (in the technical sense) females who can be pressed into these necessarily abusive relationships. Is it any wonder that there are cases like Warren Jeffs? And remember, Jeffs was arrested for arranging the marriages of other people in his compound, not just his own sexual abuse.
Again, I think your point is that not every FLDS is as bad as the Jeffs clan, but this is a culture that invites, facilitates, and protects under-age polygamous unions. Sure, not everyone does it, but is that really a defense?
I was not making a point. I was asking a question. If I had been trying to make a point I would have written an affirmation sentence rather than an interrogatory one.