Interesting. But look at the first paragraph of your link:
The Mainstream LDS do not consider lesser LDS factions to be “Mormons.” But the Apostolic United Brethren probably consider themselves to be Mormons. The LDS would love to elimiate the phrase “Mormon polygamy” from the public consciousness, but the FLDS and AUB derive their doctrines from the scriptures of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so in that sense they’re even more “Mormon” than the LDS are.
No, I saw it for myself. My friend was just one example, but I wasn’t takinmg his word for anything, I was there in Africa seeing it.
I haven’t used the TLC show as an example of anything. You must have me confused with someone else.
Sort of, but not quite.
Politically correct comes from the original idea of respecting and including everyone: women, homosexuals, blacks, native americans, etc.
But it really means toeing the perceived party line of lefty politics, since how one defines respect and inclusion differs widely. So yes, to be politically correct means avoiding offense, but really who you are trying not to offend are the arbiters of what is liberally correct, not necessarily the individuals.
So to be a politically correct feminist, one must embrace a lot of things that some of us think are pure garbage, and think so because we give women credit for being stronger and smarter than a lot of feminist ideas give them credit for. I think that a lot of feminist thinkers and activists are full of shit, and their brand of feminism often serves up the same crap that open misogyny and sexism serve up, just wrapped in a different package.
But we are veering into that huge thread I can’t do right now…
Thanks for the informative post, kimera. I have a question, though.
I’ve read elsewhere claims that humans have extremely large testes for our size, pointing to a lot of sperm competition. I have not personally done a lot of testes measuring across species, though. From what you’re saying I’d assume that ours would be, proportionately speaking, somewhere between gorillas and chimps?
I don’t embrace anything that’s pure garbage, and you aren’t the arbiter of what is and isn’t garbage, anyway…whether you call it “political correctness” or not. I embrace the effort for women to be equal to men in business, politics, and life in general. I support the right for people to live their lives in ways that do not support that, but I’m not going to lie and call it feminism. And nothing about that philosophy means women aren’t smart, and capable, and strong.
Incidentally, I am currently a stay-at-home mom, and I wouldn’t consider that a feminist choice, either. I get that women (and men) make choices that counter feminism, and have their own personal reasons for doing so. That doesn’t make it a FEMINIST choice. As I said, would you call Michelle Duggar a feminist? No doubt it’s her choice to have 20 kids and believe that the place of a woman is in the home, but I don’t see where you can call that feminism, just because it’s a woman who made the choice. Her husband made the choice, too…is HE a feminist?
I think it’s not large testes, it’s large penises that humans have, proportionately.
This is the social agreement, for sure.
But the practical fact is that we are not monogamous, since both men and women cheat.
Wiki:
And that’s just current stats, mostly in America, which hardly defines the species.
We are only monogamous on the surface.
IIRC, when the genetics of chicks among monogamous birds have been checked it’s found that the female mating with someone other than her chosen mate isn’t all that uncommon.
Cheating in a minority of cases doesn’t disprove monogamy for all. Cheating proves that some people will get some strange on the side. There is a huge difference between having an affair in addition to a two person marriage and having a group marriage within which all are faithful. I sincerely doubt the majority of serial cheaters would be able to be entirely faithful if they had five wives/husbands.
Incidentally, I also think women are more than capable of making choices that AREN’T in their best interest, personally, as are men. I’m not going to patronize anyone by patting them on the head and telling them whatever they choose to do is right, because a lot of times it isn’t. And I don’t think it’s empowering anyone to tell them it is.
Damn, my thoughts are all over the place. In terms of my “toeing the line of lefty politics.” To this I laugh, heartily. Others here can no doubt tell you why (perhaps you’re not familiar with my posting history).
I made that mistake myself once. Once.
I am conflicted with this. Since I am just brimming with opinions of what’s right, wrong, good, bad… I can agree.
On the other hand, I believe there is merit in the idea that, apart from things which have been shown to be almost universally bad (Getting hooked on meth, for instance), most decisions kinda have to be respected, no matter how much they squick you out personally. Because I’ve been hanging around this planet for a little over half a century now and it’s become pretty clear to me that no matter what I may think of something, it might still be the right thing for someone else, and unless that someone comes to me in pain and confusion seeking counsel, it’s really not my job to try and correct 'em.
And I have extended this awareness to things which most would consider “bad”, like suicide. Both the suicides I knew personally I understood and could support, no matter how frustrating and sad it was for me and the others left behind…it really was a valid choice for them.
Other things I’ve personally observed to be valid, positive choices for other people that usually provoke blanket condemnation include sexually open relationships, prostitution, and dropping out of school.
Another thing I understand now is that almost everything we feel/do is about ourselves, no matter how much it looks like its about someone else. So if I find myself in massive reaction to someone else’s choices, all that tells me is that I need to check in with myself on that topic.
As opposed to “The Stoid Show”, which is mostly about La La La…I’m right, even though the evidence shows the opposite.
(We’ve seen this before, time and time again, so don’t be so quick to throw stones, Stoid)
I don’t disagree with the above, but I will say this. While these women did not obviously come to me in pain and confusion, I think they clearly put their pain and confusion on public display on their reality TV show. This I think gives the rest of us license to say look, I don’t think this seems right to me. I don’t think that you are necessarily wrong in that polygamy can be a choice that can potentially make someone happy. I get that the choices I make aren’t right for everyone. But I do object to your characterization of this particular family as evidence of that. If you have a better example to prove your point, I’d love to see it.
Also, I think that I have a right to my belief that there are some actions that are bad for womankind (or humankind, for that matter). I will not deny anyone their right to individual autonomy, but I don’t have to agree with those choices or think that they are right.
Eh, I don’t think this at all. My biggest problem with this particular show is that the kids didn’t volunteer to be outed nationally, but because dad wants to be some sort of martyr for the cause, they are now all over TV and will be openly subjected to the bias society holds (fairly or not) against the lifestyle their parents (not them) chose. That’s my beef with the TV show.
Polygamy in general? Hey, consenting adults and all that. But this thread isn’t so much about polygamy in general, because you, as the OP, framed it around the context of the folks on this show. The folks on the show are a bad example to start with, since they are clearly unhappy, the husband is clearly an unlikable, arrogant douche, and the kids are being used as pawns in this whole game.
If you can take it back, then you never really handed it over in the first place.
What’s the saying about being so open-minded that your brain falls out?
Sounds like something closed-minded people say.
In my opinion, a woman has every right to make any choices she chooses. If she wants to sleep around, if she wants to marry a man with many wives, if she wants to ‘give’ her power away, if she wants to ‘take’ it back, it is her choice and she owes no one any explanation.
Just like if a man wants to come home from work, take off his suit, put on a rubber leotard and ball gag and bow before his mistress for hours on end, it is his own decision and not a commentary on the position of all men in our society.
I don’t know for sure what to think of the show. I know the guy is weirdly yucky to me somehow, but the women don’t seem any unhappier than literally dozens of wives I know in tradional marriages. The first wife seems especially strong minded, outspoken and perfectly capable of making her own decisions. The fact that they struggle and have emotional challenges doesn’t convince me that their family hasn’t worked or won’t work. But I really have to admit that I’m not sure what I think about that family, and I’m biased because I don’t understand the whole religious thing and how that affects the decision making process for the women, and I am turned off by the whole religion thing altogether.
Sure she has the right. Thing is, these women, within the context of this relationship, don’t have the choice to ake back any power. If they do, they lose everything, which doesn’t make it seem like they really have any autonomy at all.
Well, men don’t have to worry about their position in society, do they?
I think ultimately the thing that puts me off to them is that the women seem to be in emotional upheaval all the time, but he seems weirdly detached from it. Like, he looks sympathetic, but in a way like he doesn’t realize that he’s the one causing the distress. It’s kind of creepy.
:rolleyes:
Again, if someone gives her power away, and is able to take it back, then she never really gave it away in the first place, did she?
I don’t think we’re talking about a case of role-playing and such, are we?
I haven’t seen the show, so I can’t comment it directly. However, I am going to comment on some of the remarks in this thread, and I think Stoid tends to have a rosy view of what sounds like a really creepy situation.
(She also has a tendency that once she decides something, that’s it, and no one can convince her otherwise. Remember her lawsuit threads?)
Precisely.
P.S. Fuck that fucking useless rolly eyed smiley.