Sam, do you advocate clemency for all murderers or only those responsible for 9/11?
He just said he’s against the death penalty. And while I don’t think that there is a prison sentence or punishment even CLOSE to being appropriate for 9/11, I don’t think saying someone “needs killing” is right either. Killing Osama Bin Laden or his family or 16,000 Elvis impersonators will never undo 9/11, and will only cause more and more cycles of death and grief.
That’s an assinine question. Considering my position on vengeance murders, AKA the “Death penalty”, WTF do you think the answer to that question is? Why on earth do you think I would offer clemency* to just the terrorists? Or was that an attempt to catch someone being “unamerican”, or “supporting terror”?
Sam
*- I do not advocate clemency, I advocate a complete revocation of such state-supported vengeance killings such as the Death Penalty. There’s a monstrous difference.
But not sorry about the characterization of Americans as inhuman, blood-thirsty, unredeemable killers?
I think there is something to be said for the proposition that the death of Osama Bin Laden may actually save lives in the long run, and would not just occur to satiate the deafening cries for blood from Americans.
Vengenance killing is bad. Gotcha. But do you really have to be such a fucking asswipe and say:
Nope, it shows he’s a drama queen who is in need of therapy.
Classy.
I’m probably gonna regret saying this here, but:
I’m with the OP. We must never, ever, ever, <continue recursively> forget what those <worst vulgarity you can think of>s did. And what their ilk would like to do. And continue to try to do.
Believe it or not, I have generally been a very peaceful person. I hate violence and shrink from conflict. Until I’m really up against the wall. Since Sept 12, 2001 I have been very willing to support whatever it takes to convince animals who would do such things that it will not pay. It will not get them what they want. That countries, regimes and governments who help them will be sorry.
Decent people in this country (and many other civilized countries as well) jump at the chance to send aid and support in any form to others in need. We have long been concerned about our image and about world opinion. Didn’t help us much. Screw it. Hunt down those responsible by whatever means and put an end to them.
That is all.
Originally Posted by GaWd
Don’t be. If I weren’t Dutch and fairly happy about that, I’d be proud to be an American.
As someone who’s heard the cries for the death of people involved with 9-11 and not(think Sadaam), and an American, I think I’m allowed to. I’ve come to be extremely disgusted with my fellow countryman’s reactions to recent events.
This isn’t about whether or not the death of him will save lives. To that, there’s probably little doubt. Unfortunately, our efforts were not pure, and served to advance people’s political careers and have the people of America rally to the cry of “death to Osama Bin Laden”. Unfortunately the cry morphed into “death to Sadaam Hussein”, because the ignorant of this great land and our politicians decided they were one in the same.
They ignored the facts and they ignored the people who spoke out against it calling them unamerican. Saying that they supported the above-mentioned sickos.
Maybe not, but I feel that it was very drama queenish. I feel it disingenuous that you glossed over the sentences following what you quoted:
While I agree that the swipe I took at him was uncalled for, I also wished him luck in getting some support for dealing with what seems to bother him and healing. Not just for him though, but for everyone out there who feels the same as he does. Even for you is you espouse the same views as he does, Hamlet. It was heartfelt and I mean every word of it.
My uncalled-for Ad Hominem is not excused, however it is out of frustration with the last 3-4 years of drama.
Sam
Who is going to forget? Why will not hunting OBL down to the obscure corners of the earth and murdering him, or imprisoning him at GTMO for countless years just to put on a sham trial and sentence him to death anyways, be considered by you to be forgetting what the terrorists did to us? How could anyone, anywhere in the world, at anytime forget 9-11?
Sam
Originally posted by GaWd
Too true. Maybe we all need ''counseling"?
Maybe so, but I hope we can all recover from this decade and learn to be happy, confident, and our anger and appetite for destruction reduced thousand-fold. That goes for everyone, Bosda, Hamlet, Black, White, Brown, Christian, Jew, Muslim, even Lib.
Sam
Ah, but I think you misunderstand my intentions. The remedies you suggest are too good for him.
Any many have forgotten.
Originally posted by GaWd
Yes. And I’m holy too.
Oh, I hope so, too. I hope OBL and all his friends decide this evening that all those thoughts about blowing things up and spreading poison around are just really bad karma, and that they all come over and apologize for the damage they caused and we can sit around the campfire listening to the cicadas and singing Kumbaya. That would be really nice.
You’re a real patronizing dumbfuck. No, you don’t think that would be nice because what you really want is the exact opposite. You are the type of person who has been driving me fucking mad for almost 4 years. People in this thread seem to think that your kind is the minority, and I sure as fucking hell hope so-if not, we’re screwed.
Sam
See, you really don’t know me all that well. I really do think it would be nice. I honestly and truly would like to buy the world a Coke and make sure everybody has enough to eat, and that we could all just get along. I do not understand how somebody can want to kill somebody else because he is the “wrong” religion or color. But if you’re going to try to kill my children, well, I’m just going to have to kill you first, if I can.
Uhh huh. Right.
JBJ, your argument has some validity, particularly in terms of not doing damned fool things like invading Iraq. However, Bin Laden is the Ray Kroc of terrorism franchising. He’s the Big Cheese, the guy who made the concept work. It took him ten years to get it right, and now he and his immediate organization are spreading their practical know-how to anyone who’s ever had a bone to pick with Uncle Sam.
Without that knowledge, 200,000 protesters in Karachi screaming “Death to America!” are no threat to us. With that knowledge, and an OBL supplied organization, they are. It may now be too late to prevent the spread of OBL’s early ideas, but by God, if we kill him, we can prevent him from telling all his buddies about his latest great innovations.
Right, and there won’t be a hundred ideologues right behind him to take his place, all who hate the US more fanatically and have loads more ways to twist us up.
That’s the problem with your line of thinking. Hate spawns more hate and hate spawns murder(assassination, revenge killing, etc.), all of which spawn yet again more “bad things”, all of which follow in a circular motion and will eventually fall down around our heads again. Just like 9-11.
Sam
Bin Laden and his cronies should be exterminated like fleas.
They are not playing by feel good, soccer-at-christmas-in-the-trences, Queensbury Rules, Geneva Convention, handshake-after-the-match rules. They seek to destroy the West. Simple as that. Men women, and children regardless.
We need to take a leaf out of their book, and get smart and dirty. If you don’t believe me now, what about after the next 9/11? Or the one after that?
This is pure survival now.
Umm…no.
Terrorists seem woefully short on new ideas.
Bin Ladin, damn him, is fucking creative!
This is bad.