Osama? Anyone remember him?

Great Debates
1

Seems to me an architect of mass murder and untold billions in property damage is on the loose and no one seems to give a damn. When was the last time Bush’s White House even mentioned the guy’s name?

IMHO, it wasn’t terribly remarkable for Jr. build public support by trumping up an Iraqi crisis and rattling the saber (the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree), but this game of wag the dog with Osama is really paper-thin. I’m amazed more pundits and politicians haven’t taken him to task on it. What’s stopping him from pursuing both parties anyway? I’m growing inclined to think that they are looking for OBL, but they’ve been so damn unsuccessful at closing in on him that they don’t have the balls to tell us.

I expect the Bushistas may counter with any or all of the following:

  1. OBL is dead
  2. Saddam is a bigger threat
  3. Bush can’t just go around revealing every little secret to pissants like us

My standard response to 1 and 2 is “where’s the proof”? As for 3, I agree the government shouldn’t show their hold cards, terrorists watch CNN after all. But I don’t think distracting our gaze from the greatest human threat of our time is going to make us safer.

2

Today. Several times.

Seriously, I know what you mean… Much as I am given to doubt the Bush administration’s motives, I’m quite sure that they’re still hunting for bin Laden. Were they to produce him (either in living or corpse form), it would be a big win for them. There’s much reason for them still to be looking for him. They may be trying to misdirect attention away from him at the moment, but they’re still looking.

3

We probably should be directing attention away from the scrawny little bored-rich-kid pissant. The more we rail against him the more he serves as a hero to the anti-US impressionables.

He’s as good as dead, hopefully worse…

4

This is true, but they only refer to him in their efforts to build a connection between Al Queda and enemy numero uno, Saddam. I wonder if bin Laden is pissed over the lack of headlines he garners these days. More likely, I think he’s probably pleased to be out of sight and out of mind while he plots his next attack.

5

Are you kidding? What about the Bali bombing, the attempted shoe bombing, the destruction of the Tunisian synagogue, the French oil tanker off Yemen, the Ricin plot in England, the Kuwaiti shootings, the Pakistani Church slayings, the slaying of Daniel Pearl, as well as the myriad other plots that were, thankfully, stopped mid-process?

If OBL were as good as dead, these things would not have occured–after September 11, no less.

Saddam Hussein, evil as he is, has become a sacrificial lamb offered by an innefective administration to a public that wants to avenge September 11. But as Rumsfeld, Powell, and Bush are seeing, the American people and the international community are not lining up for tickets to this movie.

6

That still begs the question of where he is. He’s in some country, somewhere, and it doesn’t seem plausible that that country’s government fails to at least suspect it. One might hope that US diplomacy, such as it is these days, would be focused at least in part on leaning on the governments in the region to do some looking and intelligence-gathering, or, if they resist that, to lean on them much harder about their reasons.

After all this time with all those people in Afghanistan, even though it’s a big place, if we’re still striking out then he probably is not there anymore. My guess? Pakistan - which unfortunately Bush declared to be an ally, on no better basis than convenience for invading Afghanistan. If he’s leaning on Musharraf (and presumably he knows the guy’s name by now), there’s no public evidence of it. He may be reluctant to do it, anyway, since Pakistan is as serious a nucular threat as anyone, even if they’re not in the Axis and it would be embarrassing to say so now.

Keeping quiet is a common way to avoid being thought to be screwing up, but that only works for so long. Osama will still be Public Enemy Number One on the FBI’s list as long as Bush doesn’t dare remove him, though. Meanwhile, we have no reason to give him a pass.

7

I don’t think OBL can get credit for all those things, he’s more concerned with the big fish. His pattern has been massively organized and planned attacks once every several years. Also, even if his head were piked on the Capital building for all to see I don’t think terrorism would stop dead in its tracks. His martyrdom might even escalate the conflict.

8

Pakistan seems like a likely possibility to me as well, but there are any number of places he could be.

If he’s smart he’s in North Korea, Bush has got blinders on to that hot spot as well. :wink:

9

My milk almost went bad last week, but I was able to stop Osama’s nefarious plot by drinking three big glasses on the expiration date.

In your face, Bin Laden! :stuck_out_tongue:

10

Well, according to research by Harper’s magazine, Bush has not mentioned Bin Laden’s name in public since July 8, 2002.

Goes to show - when you can’t find your no. 1 villain, pretend he no longer exists and start on someone else instead.

11

**

You do realize that the al qaeda network is made of many terrorist groups, has a decentralized command structure and is quite capable of funtioning without OBL don’t you?

OBL is really only the “face” that al qaeda shows to the world through its propaganda videos, he is not the entirety of the organisation. Nor does Islamic terrorism begin and end with him.

12

Indeed. A most insightful post Azael.

It’s human nature that when something horrible happens, especially if it goes beyond normal comprehension, then we firstly want to know why? And secondly, who did it?

Taking out Osama, it seems to me, is a bit like the RIAA trying to stamp out music file sharing services (but nowhere near as evil, obviously). Like cockroaches, they just keep popping up again in other places.

My point being this… the real goal here is to address the “cause” for Islamic terrorism. We really need to be asking why someone like OBL is held up as some sort of popstar within the cadre that is “militant Islam”.

And here’s why. Of all the images which got replayed time and time again on “Al-Jazeera TV” during and after September 11, the footage which got shown more times than any other was the footage of those ratbags in the West Bank dancing and cheering the “perceived success” of the 9/11 mission. Do you remember that footage? Do you remember the looks of glee and joy on their faces as they jumped and went berko? And why? Well, it has as much to do with “the battle for perception” as it does anything else.

The more we focalise and demonise just one man as being the “cause celebre” of militant Islam, the more we play right into the hands of those within “militant Islam” who would seek to cause us spiritual pain - and ultimately, that’s their goal you know. Militarily speaking, there’s no way in the world that any terrorist group will ever truly achieve a massive blow against the Western World via terrorism alone - accordingly, to wound us where it hurts the most - in our hearts, is the next best option.

And that’s why the footage of those ratbags dancing in the West Bank after the collapse of the towers got replayed so many times on “Al Jazeera” - it was a way for many people in that part of the world to “gloat and snicker” at our expense - and Al Jazeera knows it too. It goes without saying that there’s nothing noble about any of this.

Whether we like it or not, there are dark forces afoot in the world of Islam - and I have no qualms in calling a spade a spade here. It is yet another form of colonialism - another form of conquest. Those folks who would choose to hi-jack the religion of Islam with their political agendas are as ugly and as power hungry as any despots in history. Unfortunately, they have entire generations of young men who have grown up in poverty and despair as their fertile, seemingly endless recruiting grounds for their wicked goals.

We here, in the Western World, (to protect our own future security) have to attack those breeding grounds, those recruiting grounds - and not militarily either. Ultimately, we have to win the battle of hearts and minds. It’s the only way to truly win this battle. We have to pull the rug from under the feet of the “manipulators”. In short, we in the Western World, have to improve the standards of living in every part of the world where militant Islam is prospering - coz that’s the only insecticide that works sadly. We have to create a situation where no decent person on the planet would ever cheer a 9/11 again in the future.

13

You’re exactly right about the need to drain the swamp, and even Rumsfeld was talking in those terms right after 9/11. But you have to fight the alligators too in the meanwhile.

Right now, there is a mass murderer on the loose, he may do it again (9/11 didn’t prevent Bali), and he has to be caught. That isn’t only simple vengeance, it’s the elimination of a direct threat. We do have to get Osama.

14

As much as I dislike Bin Laden, there was terrorism before him, and there will be terrorism after him. He could be worm food, buried under the rubble of some blown-up cave in Afghanistan. We don’t know. And we may never know.

But it is incedibly stupid to claim that we are not doing everything possible to find out, and to hunt down Al Queda. America is large and powerfull nation. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. The hunt for Al Queda is a intelligence game first and foremost. Having a few armored and mechanized divisions stomping around Iraq in no way impedes our ability to find and take out Al Queda members.

Most of all, I am sick of cainxinth and his ilk constantly claiming that ‘no one seems to give a damn’ regarding Al Queda. People do. The fight against terrorism recieves regular coverage in the ‘media of the trade’: Soldier of Fortune, Janes, etc. Your dependence on CNN for timely news is your own damn mistake. CNN will only push a story is there is some ‘angle’ to it. The deployment of a few A and B teams to Central Asscrackistan to chase terrorists doesn’t seem to make the cut with them; But it doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening.

15

Wasn’t there evidence that the last audio tape was faked? I believe the intelligence service of another country was saying they believe it wasn’t Bin Laden’s voice.

If that’s true, then he’s dead. They wouldn’t risk a fake unless they absolutely had to.

The thing is, if he’s dead there’s a good chance that he’s under a few tons of rock at the bottom of some cave somewhere. Or he died of kidney failure and the body either dismembered, burned, or buried somewhere.

If he’s dead, the odds of us ever finding the body are just about zilch. We may just have to be resigned to Bin Laden’s spectre haunting us for another 20 or 30 years. Remember when people said Hitler was still alive? Same thing.

16

Good call Sam. That about sums it up I’d say.

17

Did you perchance finish reading my OP before commenting? Like anyone I dislike having to quote myself, but I’ll repost the part you obviously didn’t get to:

Other than my horrific abuse of English, what you can clearly see is that what I’m claiming is that Bush is doing his looking for him, but we’re covering up the fact that we may never find him by pushing Iraq, a far less pressing concern. Nor, one necessitating military action to resolve I might add. Also, as ElvisL1ves, pointed out Bush is conflicted by his friends in Pakistan or other “allies” and possibly not willing to put his full force behind the hunt for bin Laden.

And, I am in full agreement that terrorism has to be eliminated at the source, but i’m talking about diplomacy, accommodation, and <gasp> compromise, and you and many hawks including Shrub are talking about confrontation, postcolonial hegemonism and genocide. You just couch the debate in friendler terms.

What I’m sick of are supercilious, loudmouths who make poor assumptions about me or my supposed ilk. You don’t know what I’m reading, but you can still find out, there’s a couple old threads where I discuss where I get my news, feel free to make use of the search engine.

18

Swiss institute brands latest bin Laden tape a fake

However…

Heard of misdirection?

Yeah! Lets stop looking all together. That way if he is out there, we’ll be standing around holding our dick when he strikes again. In fact it will be all the more ironic if our dick is predisposed with Iraq’s ass at the time.

:rolleyes:

19

speaking of irony…

:smack:

20

Now, did I say that? You go after al-Qaida. You capture and kill them, get them to talk, work your way up the chain of command. Somewhere along the way, you hope that someone will give you some clues.

Or, you wait for Bin Laden to make a mistake. Because even if he’s alive, if he doesn’t make a mistake he won’t be found.

The U.S. has a policy of never setting goals that require the capturing or killing of any one individual. Because if that individual wants to hide, even a country like the U.S. can’t find him. Look how many people on the FBI ‘Most Wanted’ list have avoided capture for years.

How do you suppose the U.S. should find Bin Laden if he is holed up in a nondescript home somewhere in Pakistan, with all his food being brought in by trusted aides who no one else knows, and who communicates with al-Qaida through a series of blind drops? In such a case, you either have to get lucky, or Bin Laden has to make a mistake and get seen by someone, or get careless and make a phone call that gets intercepted. But basically, the U.S. has to wait for him to make the move, because they can’t go door-to-door looking for him.

So, you hope to get lucky, and in the meantime, you try your damndest to dismantle his organization, capture or kill his leadership, and take out state sponsors.

It seems to me that the U.S. is proceeding on all those goals.