Ivory Tower Denizen, Is There a Reason for a Warning Rather than an Explanation?

[iiandyiiii]

@John_Mace

That may be, but if someone you knew decided, for all you could tell, to switch genders on a whim, would you refuse to comply with their request to be referred to by the pronouns for the new gender? If someone asked you what gender the person was, what would you say?

I’ll happily call anyone and everyone whatever they’d like me to call them. That has nothing to do with whether they’re actually trans or not – that’s just common courtesy, IMO. As for how I’d answer if someone else asked me, unless I actually knew for sure what gender they identified as, I’d say “I don’t know – perhaps you should ask them”. I’m by no means an expert on trans issues and in my understanding “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer in cases in which someone is uncertain about something.

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

Can you name an example of someone announcing their gender, and the consensus of the SDMB was that no, it isn’t? The only one I can think of is Number Six/Kaitlyn, and that was based on a large number of contradictions and inconsistencies in his/her story. And the person who pointed out the contradictions was banned, and Una Persson posted later that she had met the poster and still believed that Kaitlyn was/is transgender.

Regards,
Shodan

I don’t know, but this doesn’t mean the consensus is “whatever you decide it is”. That phrasing sounds flippant and dismissive to me, even if that’s not how you intended it. It makes it sound like the decision was on a whim and without significant consideration.

I’ll ask again – did you mean it in this way? Hopefully you didn’t.

[engineer_comp_geek]

Moderator Note

@Czarcasm

Report it? Report it? Anyone?

@billfish678

I did.

I did receive post reports for that post yesterday, but I was dealing with a flooded basement and did not have time to read through this thread and figure out what was going on. So, apologies for that.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Bricker

Agreed. I’d also like to see this slur.

@Bricker

Now, that said, I should point out that had I noticed your original post, I would have not reported it, but I certainly would have replied, and said something like:

This comment can be taken a couple of ways, but to the extent that you’re being scornful of the idea that gender identity is simply ‘whatever you want it to be,’ I’d say you’re missing a world of underlying meaning. You identify as male, you experience your gender as male, and your assigned sex at birth was male, based on your physical body, and so it may be tempting to conclude that those who cannot those same questions each in the same way – that is, whose gender identity differs from their assigned sex at birth, for example – are simply experiencing a whim. If that’s what your comment hinted, then you’re wrong, as a moment’s thought would demonstrate. People undergo stress, social ostracism, sometimes surgery, and experience increased risk of suicide in fidelity to their gender identity. This is not consistent with the idea that it’s fleeting or capricious.

And even if we were to give an example someone who simply rejected the fixed gender binary, and experienced gender fluidity, and could without sarcasm genuinely say, “Today I experience myself as a male; but this may not always be the case,” my question would be: so what? If it’s possible (and it is) to be born intersex, with a body that has both male and female characteristics, then why is it impossible for someone’s mind to run along a similar course? Why is it worthy of scorn to contemplate someone who experiences gender as something other than simply A or B, when it’s beyond cavil that there is a physical analog to this identity?

And even if there were not – again, so what?

Now, all of the above is predicated on a tone I discerned from your message, and if I was in error in sensing that tone, I withdraw the censorious tone of my words above. . . but not the underlying facts, because they, of course, remain facts.

Your honor, I rest my case.

[billfish678]

@engineer_comp_geek

Moderator Note

I did receive post reports for that post yesterday, but I was dealing with a flooded basement and did not have time to read through this thread and figure out what was going on. So, apologies for that.

No problems. Actual life comes up ya know. Wasn’t complaining. Sorry if it seemed like I was.

At least you weren’t dealing with a flooded attic

[Richard_Parker]

@Shodan

In case I wasn’t clear, I would prefer, if possible, not to discuss different standards for different posters. One will do.

My point was that when one is answering an accusation of trolling, it is odd not to respond “I wasn’t trolling,” if you weren’t. That seems like the most straightforward response, and it just strikes me as sort of odd that you’re not willing to just say that.

Again–just to doubly reiterate–even to the extent this was trolling I do not like seeing it moderated. But I also think it’s perfectly reasonable to have read it as a kind of double entendre potshot, and strange that you wouldn’t disavow that intent if that reading isn’t correct.

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

I don’t know, but this doesn’t mean the consensus is “whatever you decide it is”.

The consensus on the SDMB is that whatever a person decides is their gender, is their gender. Saying “whatever you decide” carries no connotation of whimsy, nor any implication that the decision is frivolous.

The consensus is that whatever they decide is their gender is the key factor in deciding what their gender is. That’s what I said.

That’s not a slur, that’s not insulting, it is what the consensus is.

This is bizarre. 'You are saying the same thing as everyone else, but when you do it, it derails the thread and is trolling. But not when anyone else does it. Just you."

I’ll ask again – did you mean it in this way? Hopefully you didn’t.

IvoryTowerDenizen didn’t feel the need even to ask the question. As I asked in the OP, I wonder why not. Not a question, not even a Mod Note - straight to the warning.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

The consensus on the SDMB is that whatever a person decides is their gender, is their gender. Saying “whatever you decide” carries no connotation of whimsy, nor any implication that the decision is frivolous.

The consensus is that whatever they decide is their gender is the key factor in deciding what their gender is. That’s what I said.

That’s not a slur, that’s not insulting, it is what the consensus is.

This is bizarre. 'You are saying the same thing as everyone else, but when you do it, it derails the thread and is trolling. But not when anyone else does it. Just you."

With respect, you’re not saying the same thing as everyone else, in my understanding. You phrased it differently, and in my view, that different phrasing carries a different connotation. In my understanding, there is significantly more to gender identity than “whatever they decide it is”. If you include an addendum “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals”, then I’d agree.

IvoryTowerDenizen didn’t feel the need even to ask the question. As I asked in the OP, I wonder why not. Not a question, not even a Mod Note - straight to the warning.

Regards,
Shodan

I agree – should have been a mod note. But how about answering the question (or Richard Parker’s anyway, just to eliminate any uncertainty?

[billfish678]

This is absurd.

Does somebody actually expect a possible troller to go “yeah, I was trolling!”

This makes about as much sense as the witch trials where if you weren’t a witch you drowned.

PS. I don’t think Shodan was trolling at all.

And further more…I find this whole idea of somebody stating something and problems arising because it “might be” problematic behavior XYZ dangerous as hell…

[D_Anconia]

@iiandyiiii

I’ll happily call anyone and everyone whatever they’d like me to call them. That has nothing to do with whether they’re actually trans or not – that’s just common courtesy, IMO.

I agree, 100%. It’s just common courtesy.

Do you call out posters who refer to USians instead of Americans?

[Larry_Borgia]

@Exapno_Mapcase

Your honor, I rest my case.

Case dismissed. You did not find a slur. Because there isn’t one. The most common slur against the transgendered is “tranny.” There are probably others. Shodan used none of them. His post contains no slurs at all.

At worst, his post is an overly simplistic look at a complex issue. This is what** Bricker** was responding to in the post of his you quoted. That may be true, but it isn’t against board rules.

Or maybe the idea is that by taking a simplistic view he was responding sarcastically to the cumbersome and unworkable (IMO) scheme of the thread’s OP. I don’t see how you can get that from the plain text of his post, but even if that’s your interpretation sarcastic replies have never merited warnings. 90% of the board would be banned if they did.

This warning really needs to be reversed.

[Czarcasm]

@D_Anconia

I agree, 100%. It’s just common courtesy.

Do you call out posters who refer to USians instead of Americans?

1. How often does that happen, and
2. Are they referring to themselves as “USians”?

[D_Anconia]

@Czarcasm

1. How often does that happen, and
2. Are they referring to themselves as “USians”?

It happens often enough that I’ve noticed it.

Sometimes by Canadians/Europeans, Leftists, or all three.

[Czarcasm]

@D_Anconia

It happens often enough that I’ve noticed it.

Sometimes by Canadians/Europeans, Leftists, or all three.

But not referring to themselves, right?

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

In my understanding, there is significantly more to gender identity than “whatever they decide it is”. If you include an addendum “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals”, then I’d agree.

So, long consideration is a necessary condition before the choice of gender is valid? If someone with a beard announces “My gender is female”, you first ask if they have consulted a professional before you agree?

But how about answering the question (or Richard Parker’s anyway, just to eliminate any uncertainty?

No, I wasn’t trolling.

ITD assumed I was trolling because I didn’t say I wasn’t trolling. It would be a pleasant surprise if my saying it now made a difference, but it would still be a surprise.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

So, long consideration is a necessary condition before the choice of gender is valid? If someone with a beard announces “My gender is female”, you first ask if they have consulted a professional before you agree?

No, the details of their transition (or non-transition, whatever it may be) is none of my business, unless they choose to reveal those details. If they want to be referred to as “she/her”, that’s how I’ll refer to them, and this goes for any human on the planet, no matter how they present themselves.

If it’s a close friend, I might ask personal questions, since I think close friends can be curious about each other’s personal lives. Of course, they don’t have to answer, and I’d never press beyond their comfort level.

No, I wasn’t trolling.

ITD assumed I was trolling because I didn’t say I wasn’t trolling. It would be a pleasant surprise if my saying it now made a difference, but it would still be a surprise.

Regards,
Shodan

Thanks for answering.

[iiandyiiii]

@D_Anconia

I agree, 100%. It’s just common courtesy.

Do you call out posters who refer to USians instead of Americans?

I’m not sure if I’ve seen this, and if I did, I didn’t even know that anyone didn’t want to be called a “USian”. If someone calls an individual “USian” after the individual said that they didn’t want to be called “USian”, then that’s obnoxious and discourteous and they should be called out.

[D_Anconia]

@iiandyiiii

I’m not sure if I’ve seen this, and if I did, I didn’t even know that anyone didn’t want to be called a “USian”. If someone calls an individual “USian” after the individual said that they didn’t want to be called “USian”, then that’s obnoxious and discourteous and they should be called out.

How many Americans do you know that want to be called USians? Somewhere between slim and none?

[Czarcasm]

@D_Anconia

How many Americans do you know that want to be called USians? Somewhere between slim and none?

How the hell can that question be answered if it wasn’t asked of most Americans in the first place?

[aldiboronti]

@iiandyiiii

With respect, you’re not saying the same thing as everyone else, in my understanding. You phrased it differently, and in my view, that different phrasing carries a different connotation. In my understanding, there is significantly more to gender identity than “whatever they decide it is”. If you include an addendum “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals”, then I’d agree.

Let me get this straight. If I say that I believe a person’s gender identity should be decided by the person himself/herself then that’s a slur unless I add “through long consideration and often consultation with gender identity professionals.”

Are you kidding me? That is ludicrous. This was a terrible mod decision and if it is allowed to stand then there’s something very wrong with this board.