I disagree that it needs to be serious. And not being serious doesn’t make it flippant. Children as young as 4 or 5-years old are presenting themselves as a different gender than their birth gender. They’re not giving it any consideration at all, as long as they are in an accepting environment. It’s the nature of the environment that causes the “consideration”, not the nature of the identity. I’m really surprised you are having such a difficult time with this. Maybe reading this article will help.
And there are people who consider themselves gender fluid. More male on some days and more female on other days. Do they have to go through some “consideration” every time they switch?
I think we’re using different meanings of “serious”. I’m using it to mean genuinely and deeply felt rather than flippant or on a whim. As far as I can tell, this article doesn’t conflict with my point, nor does gender fluidity.
By the way, I have no problem with taking a child’s word for their gender, even if it changes day to day or moment to moment. Even if it’s a series of “flippant” decisions. I’d never challenge a kid or anyone else on their stated gender identity. That doesn’t conflict with my other points.
Doesn’t matter what he thinks. That is how some define it.
Doesn’t matter that his remark was flippant. It was grounded in a valid contempt for an ideological re-framing of gender. There must be room for disagreement on this issue or else this not a forum to fight ignorance but rather a forum to project (and protect) acceptable left-wing paradigms.
If he was stating something contrary to his beliefs, because he has contempt for that view, that sounds like it was actually trolling.
But he said he wasn’t trolling, and I take him at his word. I’m just surprised that this is his view, but only based on my memories of his posts in other threads on the topic. My memory might be off.
As iiandyiiii stated, the courteous thing is to call people what they call themselves. When was the last time you heard an American calling himself a USian?
I did some googling, and I see that some folks from other countries in the Americas feel that they are Americans, and thus use the term USian to distinguish between folks from the USA versus other countries in North, Central, and South America.
I don’t find it offensive at all if someone were to call me a USian. If someone expressed offense or a preference for some other word, I wouldn’t use USian to describe them, and I’d urge others to do the same.
I know you think you are making a point, but you really aren’t…unless you are in the habit of calling Germany “Deutschland” and the inhabitants of that country “Deutsch”. How much effort do you put into calling people from other countries what they call themselves?
OK, let’s not worry about what word we use or how we describe it. I’m just saying that I don’t think a trans (or other non-traditional gender) person needs to put any more thought, serious or otherwise, into their self-identified gender than you and I need to. And I already said I’ve never given it any thought at all, so I’m not going to require anyone else to doing anything I haven’t done. Can you agree with that?
Seriously, what the hell difference does it make? Even if a few “cheaters” slip through, the world isn’t going to end.
No one has to put any effort at all into their gender identity. I’m not requiring anyone to do anything at all. Trans people and cis people alike don’t need to do anything at all that they don’t want to do.
I don’t know what this is responding to. I think you’re misreading my posts. I have no concern about this whatsoever.
I’m responding to this: My only point is that gender identity is seriously (that’s a better word than long) considered, not decided flippantly or on a whim, for trans folks. I’m sure it often is, but it needn’t be. It only needs to be if the person finds themself in a hostile environment. As long as society is accepting, then it needn’t be “decided” at all. It just is, like it was for me.
Sure, it doesn’t need to be – I was only stating my understanding of how it is for most, if not all, trans/non-cis people. Based on conversations with trans people, and the writings of trans people that I’ve read.
OK, so we’re in agreement then: Gender is whatever a person self-identifies as. Much nuance might ensue, but it needn’t ensue, especially if society is accepting of gender nonconforming people.
Yes. I still think the language Shodan used sounds flippant, but should have received a mod note, not a warning. “Whatever a person self-identifies as” doesn’t sound flippant in the way that “whatever he decides he is”, IMHO. Self-identification is the key, and IMO, “whatever he decides he is” trivializes the concept, even if it wasn’t meant that way.
Tomato, tomahto. They mean the exact same thing to me. I’m not really concerned, though, with whether someone shows a certain amount of respect for an idea or not.
I wouldn’t have issued a warning but I’d be a much more laissez-faire mod overall. I’m no mind-reader but my gutlevel sense was that, yes, Shodan was mocking trans / genderqueer / etc gender identity issues. I can see how that might have been triggering or offensive to some folks. Me, I’m no hothouse flower and I think my perspective, not the dismissive perspective, is the strong side and therefore benefits from the most open communication. I don’t strongly feel that Ivory Tower Denizen made a miscall in warning Shodan – all that has been alleged about his “tone” and “attitude” seem more likely than not to be accurate reads – it’s more a question of “should we tolerate it in the name of non-stifled communication or intercede because it’s hurtful and kind of nasty in its dismissive contempt for an already-marginalized group of people”? I’m of the “bring it on” persuasion. I make more damn sense than he does.
I was hoping you’d respond here, as I’ve been following your insights via your cross-posted blog entries with interest for some time. Thanks very much for sharing your reactions here.
“Decide” indicates a choice and only a choice, “self-identify” indicates the possibility of choice but also the possibility of discovery/realisation of/acceptance of an existing/inherent/innate trait. The two are not equivalent.
And if we’re appealing to the mods, I’m appealing for them to not rescind, as it’s screamingly obvious (to me) that Shodan was mocking the idea of self-identifying, at a minimum.