It doesn’t matter if @Kimstu is a woman. She can let other people call her all manner of objectifying terms; more power to her. Her opinion doesn’t dictate what other women get to be called.
…abso-fucking-lutely.
Thats an entirely fair conclusion based on YWTF’s hateful, demeaning and cruel response to Boudicca90’s post. Imagine telling someone who is obviously in pain that “you don’t have it as bad as us.” That “what you are going through is all in your head.” Its gaslighting. (Real gaslighting, not the stuff that YWTF has been accusing others of doing in this thread)
What of it?
It is perfectly possible to make these arguments without being hateful, demeaning and cruel. Kimstu points out an obvious one: instead of saying “biological males” you can instead say “transgender girls”. But it appears that cruelty is the point. And now YWTF has taken the gloves off by directly going after a transgender poster who did nothing but express their frustration with having to debate their right to exist. I’ll be dammed if I let that stand.
This isn’t the oppression olympics and the mere fact that YWTF has been a member of these boards for fifteen years automatically is a privileged position, she is a respected member of the boards, has positively contributed to the community, and has a great reputation. And she used that privilege as a shield, as she has done throughout the thread, and she used that privilege to shut down a transgender member of the boards in a cruel and hurtful way. We’ve tiptoed around the fact that her words are hurtful and harmful because of that and I don’t think we should tiptoe around it any more.
As Miller said earlier in the thread: we’ve all taken care not to use the “T%RF” word, we’ve all argued the arguments and avoided being personal. But its time to stop pretending that the positions that YWTF and DemonTree and RickJay have argued in this thread isn’t having a real-world effect. This thread isn’t even in Great Debates. Its in one of the supposedly nicer area of the boards, but a Great Debate exists. And one side of the debate is using hurtful, cruel and demeaning language and they have made it obvious they don’t give a damn about the consequences. Do you want to argue the right of women to define themselves? Then argue away. Just don’t be cruel about it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
This board had a misogyny problem. It was driving women away. The problem hasn’t gone away, but things have improved because we all worked as s community to make things better. This board has a transphobia problem. It is driving transgender people away. We could all work together to make things better, if you liked. It starts with listening to what transgender people have to say. Unfortunately we’ve driven most of them away, not only from this thread, but from the boards.
If being “woke” means doing my best not to be " demeaning hateful and cruel" then I will wear those woke googles with pride.
You don’t have to mollify me. And these issues affect me, they affect transgender people, it isn’t all about you. I have every right to be here taking part in the discussion.
So does your opinion not dictate what transgender people get to be called? Because I’m good with that.
My opinion doesn’t dictate what transgender people get to be called. Their opinion doesn’t either.
If that was “taking the gloves off”, you’re more out of touch with reality that I thought. The more you portray opposing viewpoints as monstrous, the more you signal that your side is comprised of intellectual lightweights who cannot be taken seriously. @chela isn’t an idiot, you know. She can judge for herself who is speaking rationally and who isn’t.
It’s a secular religion, anti-science as all religions are, and anyone who disagrees with the tenets is accused of hate instead of heresy.
Ah yes, the old “your opinions are physically hurting people” thing rears its head. It was going to sooner or later. Emotional blackmail is not a real argument.
…there were many ways you could have responded to that post. Why did you decide to respond the way you did? Having empathy for others is a “reality based” position. I’m not the one out of touch with reality.
In the real world not everything needs to be an intellectual discussion. In the real world people have feelings, and people get hurt, and people can be cruel, and we can discuss those things without having to view them through an “intellectual lens.” Pointing that out isn’t “lightweight.” You aren’t the boss of this discussion.
@chela isn’t an idiot you know. She responded to a post of mine, and I responded to that post of hers. That’s how messageboards work. She is still free to chose a side in the debate.
What did I say that was wrong? Maybe start there and then come back to me.
…asking you to not post hurtful, demeaning and cruel things isn’t “emotional blackmail.” And I never said " physically hurting people". I said “real-world effect.” And posting pictures of trans-gender women and calling them men is a cruel, hurtful and demeaning thing to do.
…I’ve already done that. You used your privilege as a long-standing member of this community to shut someone else down. And you gas-lighted them.
The truth is neither cruel nor demeaning, though it does sometimes hurt.
…can you explain why it is you won’t refer to a poster on the SDMB by a pronoun they didn’t want to be referred to, when obviously you don’t believe that to be “the truth?” If you believe they are lying, why do you choose to coddle them?
Why does the “truth” matter in one context, but not in the other? What stops you from extending the values you uphold as a moderator to the way that you choose to behave as a poster? Its all about choice here.
We are debating “the truth” in this thread. And the truth is you are using language that is both cruel and demeaning, you’ve been told this, yet you continue to do so.
Let me quote back your own words:
She responded to a post of mine, and I responded to that post of hers. That’s how messageboards work. She is still free to chose a side in the debate.
I shut no one down. I responded to the false idea that black people would automatically be repelled from a thread about scientific racism. As a black person.
I repeat, the more you show a need to vilify people who disagree with you, the more people are going to see you are unhinged, irrational, and afraid of confronting reality head-on.
You may continue to see misgendering as akin to using slurs, but I’m telling you now, the more women feel threatened by gender ideologues, the more they will be asserting their 1st amendment right to call a duck a duck, rather than a trans swan. If women have to get over being referred to as “individuals with cervixes”, there is no reason trans women can’t handle being called males.
…let me quote your own words back to you.
Imagine contextualising the transgender experience as purely performative, as “just a costume”, as just a “performance.” Imagine saying that to someone who has just expressed frustration at having to debate their identity. Its no wonder you “find it hard to relate.” Its because you haven’t listened to a word that they have said.
I’m just calling it like I see it. I’m confronting reality head-on. And if you want to call me “unhinged and irrational” then just do it already. Don’t “imply it.” Don’t hide behind others. I’m right here. Don’t work the rule. Just do it already.
The first amendment is a construct, an Americanism, a shield. And that shield doesn’t protect you from criticism.
Here’s the big difference.
Nobody on these boards, outside of the context of this (and related) discussions are going around referring to women as “individuals with cervixes.” Discussion on “individuals with cervixes” hasn’t driven anyone away from these messageboards, far from it you are only too keen to have that discussion here.
But calling transgender women men, as you have done right here and as other posters have done so unapologetically, is driving people away. You don’t need to do that. You’ve made it clear that “individuals with cervixes”, or that the word “T%RF”, are offensive to you, and we have all chosen to not use those words because we don’t want to be hurtful, cruel or dehumanizing. It isn’t hard to be respectful.
How is this discussion driving away trans people from the sdmb as a whole?
…perhaps that question would be better answered by some of the transgender members that regularly still post here. Who do you think we should ask?
I have no idea, not you? maybe they’re hanging out in Cafe Society or the game thread. Maybe this one thread topic doesn’t pique their interest. And call me what you like, radical feminist yeah that’s a hoot.
…yeah, thats where they all are, just hanging out, chatting about movies and stuff. Sure. Lets go with that.
I would very much like to not call you a name that other people in this thread have said they consider offensive.
I have no doubt plenty of trans women agree with me that “woman” is not a costume or a performance. There are also plenty of trans folk who agree with me that the root of female oppression is female biology. I know of others who also agree with me that trans women are a distinct class that should not be socio-politically lumped with women on the basis that doing so erases our biological and social differences.
Believe it or not, my views are shared by many transgender people, and I have no reason to believe @Boudicca90 isn’t one of them. And if she isn’t, she is more than capable of refuting my position.
“I don’t see ‘woman’ as a costume either; it’s my identity because…”
“I think you’re wrong to imply transwomen treat ‘woman’ as a costume because…”
“What’s the big deal if something thinks ‘performing woman’ makes someone a woman? It’s fine because…”
This is what rational discourse looks like. If you don’t know how to function in this kind of environment, you don’t have to participate in this thread.
…the context of what you said though was crystal-fucking-clear. You were putting a trans-women “in her place.” Telling her that she will never be part of the “clubhouse.” It was cruel, demeaning and hurtful.
I am participating in rational discourse. You don’t have to respond to me, and you can stop participating in this thread whenever you like as well.