J K Rowling and the trans furore

In My Humble Opinion
3044

And if we let all kinds of people just come into this country and just call themselves American even though they don’t look American and persist in eating tacos and wearing sombreros then “American” will lose all meaning.

You can’t truly be American unless you were born and raised in the USA. People who grew up in other countries didn’t experience this and do not share our unique American experience. If we let just anyone call themselves American then the word will lose all meaning.

The above is NOT the way I feel but it’s the rational for anti-immigrant bigotry. They are pretty much the same as the rational used by anti-trans bigots.

3045

One indicator of what could happen is if you look at deviant behavior in men’s restrooms. Like these public examples:

Larry Craig scandal - Wikipedia.

They’re well known so they gained national attention, but it is something that happens commonly pretty much everywhere. If men could gain full access to women’s spaces by simply pinning a “I’m a woman” button on their shirt, I would have to expect that some men would start hanging out in the women’s restroom. It probably wouldn’t be the same men that hang out in the men’s restroom, but I’m sure there are deviant men who would enjoy hanging out in the women’s restroom while women and girls do their normal business.

3046

Exactly. That’s why I just ignore all this Chicken Little crap, because I’ve heard all this before. Men I served with saying people like me shouldn’t be allowed to shower in the locker rooms or get bunked with me because I might rape them or shouldn’t be in the military at all because my very presence will “disrupt unit morale” (because they always have to watch out for us dangerous, perverted gays.) It is shit that I heard all the time as a gay man and now i’m hearing the same arguments as a trans woman. Whatever “issues” there are with bathrooms, locker rooms, prisons, etc. are not big enough to require new laws and new accommodations. And they certainly haven’t shown our existence to be a big enough issue to warrant any major changes. The status quo is fine with me.

3047

If?

You say this as though it’s not already the law in many places across the country. the law in DC

For example,
individuals have the right to use the following facilities consistent with their gender identity or
expression: locker rooms, dressing rooms, including those located within District of Columbia
Public Schools, 2 homeless shelters, group homes, educational institutions, and District offices and
bathrooms.
Simply put, a person who identifies as, or presents as, a man should be permitted to use a men’s
restroom, and a person who identifies as, or presents as a woman, should be permitted to use a
women’s restroom

It doesn’t matter at all what you expect, it’s already like this and the perverts are NOT DOING IT. Your expectation is flat out wrong. Go read my earlier post where police representatives in a dozen states said that laws just like this one didn’t create a public safety crisis for women. Maybe they’re all in on it, part of the cabal to take away womenhood and give it men.

3048

Unfortunately, I think the best analogy is how we treat the disabled.

We have the “social” definition of disabled. And then we have the policy-based definitions of disabled.

We all know someone who suffers from a chronic health condition that keeps them from being able to be the life of the party all the time. Could be they have something like IBS. Or maybe they suffer from really bad cluster headaches from time to time. This person can be said to be disabled in an informal sense. Disabled in an informal sense has a very low bar, and it’s subjective. As an avid walker, I think anyone who suffers from joint pain bad enough to keep them from doing a brisk 3-mile walk is disabled. But to someone else, it would be bullshit to call that person “disabled”. To them, I’m distorting the meaning of “disabled” by labeling such a person that way.

But if a person wants to be officially acknowledged as disabled, then they really do have to meet certain requirements. There is societal importance to officially recognizing the disabled, since being disabled entitles you to certain benefits and privileges.

I see using the women’s restroom like I see parking spots reserved for the physically handicapped. You do not have to be in a wheelchair or on crutches to be entitled to those spaces, and rightfully so. But you should still have to justify your use of that space with a reason other than “I want to because I believe I’m disabled”. You have to be perceived as disabled by some decision-maker somewhere to get that parking pass. IMHO, if most reasonable people can see that you are female-presenting, I’m OK with a person using the women’s restroom (as long as they conform to the norms of such spaces). To me, this is like someone granting you a parking pass because you have IBS. You might piss off someone by taking that spot. But you’ve got a convincing enough narrative so they can shut up.

But being able to pass in a women’s restroom shouldn’t entitle a person to everything that comes from the “woman” label. Just like having a handicapped parking pass doesn’t entitle someone to a disability pension. Having a handicapped parking pass doesn’t entitle you to scholarships devoted to helping disabled students. Having a handicapped parking pass doesn’t entitle you to special education services or job coaching. It doesn’t obligate the Paralympics to allow you to compete on a team. Each of these arenas have their own set of gatekeepers who decide who gets in and who doesn’t. Entry into one gate does automatically force all the gates open.

As I said upthread, if we have no problem telling some disabled people “no”, there is no reason we should wring our hands over telling some transwomen “no”. We wouldn’t be saying “no” for hateful reasons. We would be saying “no” to protect women and the protections they are afforded under the law.

3049

I admit I’m not well versed in all instances, but there are these cases:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/

3050

I absolutely support Planet Fitness on this. Being a trans woman who has a membership there, it made me feel supported and protected that I know the company would back me up if a bigot like that tried that with me.

3051

One guy 4 years ago decides to “prove a point” and change in the women’s locker room. This barely qualifies, you have to really squint to make it fit the narrative. Yes, it’s a man pretending to be trans so he can use the ladies locker room, but he’s not actually claiming to be trans, and he’s not doing it because he’s a pervert, he’s doing it to illustrate what all the perverts would “surely” do under the new law.

One lady from 2 years ago gets bent out of shape because she saw a transgender woman in her locker room. This isn’t even close, it’s just a transwoman using the locker room.

3052

I don’t have the authoritative list of all incidents. These are ones made national news which I happen to remember hearing about. I would imagine that many incidents completely stay out of the news, just like all the men in park restrooms that get caught other than celebrities. I’m sure more men than George Michael and Larry Craig have been caught in restrooms, but those are the only ones I heard about.

3053

I don’t know if this has been cited yet, but just in case:

Like I said earlier, it’s rare, but it does happen.

3054

One other thing is that all the locker room creeps don’t necessarily make the news. There are men creepers in the men’s locker room, but they don’t do anything so overt that they get kicked out. They walk around the locker room checking out the view and taking a lot of showers. If I were to report these guys to the staff, they would say that there’s nothing they could do since it’s legal for him to be there and there’s nothing illegal about walking around the locker room. It wouldn’t make the news and no one would know about it. It would be up to me to change my behavior if I didn’t like it. That might mean changing in the stall or avoiding the locker room altogether. I suspect the same thing would happen with women’s locker room creepers. The management would say that anyone can use any locker room and there’s nothing they can do. The woman would either continue using the locker room while the creeper checked out the view or change at home instead.

3055

Women are victimized all the time by males in restrooms and locker rooms. These stories don’t make the news because we have normalized violence against women.

@YWTF already posted this, but here goes:

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times , suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

In a further 46 cases, sexual assault allegations were made about attacks in other areas such as in the pool, in a sports hall or corridors.

Single-sex spaces are protective of women. Turning these spaces into mixed-sex spaces will cause harm to women. The TWAW supporters will say that transwomen aren’t responsible for these crimes. Well, guess what? Ciswomen aren’t responsible for the crimes inflicted on transwomen! And yet ciswomen are the ones will be the ones incurring the brunt of violence caused by men having unrestricted access to their spaces. These men have always invaded women’s spaces, but at least they can be dragged out the moment a woman spots them. Turn TWAW into an institutional policy and now that won’t happen. It *can’*t happen in a society where every male, whether they are female-presenting or not, is entitled to be in the women’s restroom.

At least labeling the room “unisex” is honest advertising. Calling a room a “single-sex” space when both sexes have unrestricted access to it is empty theater.

I am wondering what your concept of “acceptable harm” is,@Cheesesteak, @Boudicca90, and @Ann_Hedonia. If we carry out your ideal TWAW proposal for a year and we find that the violence inflicted on women by males in women’s restrooms, locker rooms, shelters, and prisons increases by 10%, would that bother you? Or would you conclude the experiment a success because 1% of the population would be able to enjoy gender affirmation? I’m curious what kind of evidence you would need to be convinced that your plan is harmful.

If we run your experience and we end up with a greater than 1% uptick in violence on women, I would be pissed off because it would seem like we’re sacrificing women’s quality of life just so men/males can keep on living their best lives. I would be raging mad if we get anything close to 10%.

I’m just curious how you are calibrated.

3056

Avoidance is a form of harm and it doesn’t make the news either. You might hear about the women who get beaten up or killed. But you will never hear about the women who avoided the room altogether.

Some people will say that those women are making a voluntary choice to be so fearful. They are harming themselves, they will say. It’s the “lose-lose” predicament that women always deal with. Hysterical, paranoid ninny vs foolish, unsympathetic victim. Pick your poison.

3057

There are a few things that I disagree with in your statement. Transwomen ARE women, so the single-sex space you want to preserve is preserved. Unless an Intersex bathroom is actually instituted the danger you assert is not present.

I do not believe that any male can claim that they are a transwoman and hop on into the women’s bathrooms.

Men who want to enter a women’s restroom will certainly not be stopped by the idea of one-sex space. I know someone who was attacked by a man who entered her stall while she was on the toilet.

Anyone who feels threatened by someone else should remove themselves to a safe place (if possible) and call the authorities. If you are threatened or harassed in the bathroom by a man, they won’t be excused simply because transwomen exist. If the person whom you perceive to be male is not threatening, you can always ask them directly why they are there.

Transwomen are in danger from cismen just as ciswomen are and have just as much right to expect a safe bathroom.

I do not think that you and I will see eye to eye on this, but I find this thread so upsetting that I wanted to participate in the discussion. Transwomen are women. I believe that suggesting otherwise is dehumanizing.

3058

Should I infer from this that you’re in favour of self-certification? As in, if someone simply declares themselves to be a woman (and perhaps signs a form to that effect) then they have the right to be treated as women in all particulars? If not, what level of gatekeeping do you think is appropriate?

3059

Part of the trouble is that there is no clear definition of transwomen. Which transwoman definition most fits with what you mean:

  1. A transwoman is a male who says they are a woman
  2. A transwoman is a male who identifies as a woman, lives as a woman, and significantly transforms their body, behavior, and appearance to greatly conform to women in their society

I’m guessing you mean #2 by what you wrote. But some trans advocates want it to be #1, which means that a male could claim they are a transwoman by just saying “I am a woman” with no way to dispute that. They don’t have to change anything about themselves other than say that they are a woman.

3060

Thank you, it absolutely is. We just want to be treated like any other woman, and constantly equating us with men is insulting and demeaning. Our rights shouldn’t be curtailed because a few cismen are trying to take advantage of things, and I will fight any attempt to do so.

3061

What would you do if I said “I’m a woman” and then hung around in the women’s locker room just like the men creepers do in the men’s locker room? I wouldn’t attack or talk to anyone, but I would just wander around and take showers. Would you support my right to be there, or would you want me to be removed?

3062

Again, anyone who is threatening, or who behaves in a violent or inappropriate way, is cause for getting help. There’s no magic transwomen card that lets people behave as they please. I would also point out that a transwoman might present as a man at a given point in time for any number of reasons, but still is entitled to the privileged space of a women’s restroom.

3063

No, you would most likely give off no indication that you actually are a woman, so you would be removed. This isn’t difficult.