It’s very easy to be threatening in ways that are hard to prove to a third party.
On what grounds?
It takes more than just saying “I am a woman” if there is no indication that you are trying to pass as a woman. I would call bullshit on that. I know if I saw someone who was clearly male in the women’s restroom or locker rooms, I would confront him and tell him to gtfo.
I would like it to be the standard that transwoman must appear to reasonably conform to typical women in society, but that doesn’t align with the notion that self-identification is all that is required, which is saying “I am a woman”. If that’s all it takes, then I would have every right to be in the locker room even though I looked and acted completely male.
That isn’t all it takes, and never has been. I don’t know where you are getting this from.
It was in the link that Cheesesteak posted about the DC laws:
I’m not a lawyer, but to me, “a person who identifies as”, seems to mean that someone can say “I am a woman” and meet the requirements of the law. I would like to see that expanded to be more meaningful, such as “a person who has identified as X for such-and-such time” so that jokesters can’t just claim “I’m a woman” and immediately be legal.
Yes, it is. Nonetheless, if you find yourself in a situation that makes your spider senses tingle, or are threatened, calling the authorities is exactly what the authorities will tell you to do.
Exactly. I think there’s a gut reaction that people have to a perceived intrusion into a “safe” place. This thread has seen everything from the type of statement you’ve noted, to the fear that transwomen would take up too many bathroom resources (longer lines! no stalls!).
Well you are wrong about that. “Identifies” means more than just saying “I am a woman”; it’s someone who IS a woman, regardless of how they may have been born as. I know that probably won’t be enough for you, but it’s an important distinction.
I’ve heard many anti-trans arguments, but the “hogging bathroom resources” is a new one, lol. Believe me, we don’t like having to deal with the longer lines of the women’s restrooms any more than other women.
The go-to response for stories like this one is that they are rare isolated events. “Out of millions of restrooms and several years, there are only handful of such incidents you can find?! Pffft.” Never mind that the goalpost has just moved from no increased risk to increased risk but not a whole bunch more risk maybe.
But here’s the question that never gets asked:
Why are there almost zero stories of women attacking other women and girls like this, and yet we can find multiple instances of transwomen attacking women and girls?
It suggests to me that differences between transwomen and women are deeper than just penis vs vagina. Women greatly outnumber transwomen, so just on that basis alone you’d expect more reports of female-on-female violence. But we don’t see that at all: we see the opposite.
I posted this study weeks ago. It shows that when conviction rates were compared between transwomen and men, they were statistically similar. Women were much less likely than either to commit crime. So the conclusion is that having a self-identified female gender identity does not mean a person has female-like crime patterns.
Even if we assume that no men will take advantage of self-ID and that only legitimate transwomen will use women’s facilities, why shouldn’t we expect from the study I just cited that women’s risk will be equivalent to what it would be if all males were allowed in?
This is the question that people should be asking.
I do not believe that any male can claim that they are a transwoman and hop on into the women’s bathrooms.
Men who want to enter a women’s restroom will certainly not be stopped by the idea of one-sex space. I know someone who was attacked by a man who entered her stall while she was on the toilet.
I could easily say that allowing transwomen to use women’s restrooms won’t stop men from beating them up. These violent men can just follow them when they come out of the women’s restroom and beat them up in the hallway. But it would be stupid for me to use this argument in favor of keeping the status quo, right?
You admit that men are already in women’s spaces, harming ciswomen. No one is doing anything to stop this from happening, probably because this kind of violence has been super normalized and it registers as a “big whoop” from everyone. Both men and women. Don’t you think that’s kind of shitty? Shouldn’t we do be doing something that makes it harder for men to hurt women, both cis and trans, rather than something that makes it easier for men to hurt women?
Anyone who feels threatened by someone else should remove themselves to a safe place (if possible) and call the authorities.
What do you imagine the authorities will do?
Woman: “Officer, there’s a man in the restroom!”
Officer: “How do you know there’s a man in the restroom, ma’am? See, I’m woke!”
How do you tell a man from a transwoman, @Sunny_Daze? I have an image in my head of a prototypical transwoman, just like I have in my head an image of a prototypical ciswoman. But those are stereotypes. There are transwomen who look like this individual. How am I supposed to know whether this person identifies as a woman or a man? Statistically speaking, a person with this physical appearance is much more likely to identify as a man. But under TWAW, it would be oppressive for me act on this information because doing so would not be gender affirming.
Let’s say a questionable woman enters a communal shower. I’m all alone. I get out of there because I feel very uncomfortable. I flag down the gym manager. They inform me they cannot do anything because the questionable woman hasn’t done anything wrong, and it would be discriminatory for the gym manager to ask that individual whether they are a woman. The gym manager does not want a lawsuit. They don’t want to be the latest victim of the social media anti-TERF warriors. So they tell me they can’t help me. If I’m that uncomfortable, I need to either wait for the questionable woman to leave the room or I need to go home, they say.
This is how I’m envisioning the situation playing out in a society that treats gender affirmation as a fundamental right. The more times this situation gets played out, the more access men will have to women’s spaces and the more harm will result.
If you are threatened or harassed in the bathroom by a man, they won’t be excused simply because transwomen exist. If the person whom you perceive to be male is not threatening, you can always ask them directly why they are there.
What if the man is just standing there staring at me while I undress? What if every time I look over at them, they are looking back at me, smiling. What if I see them undressing around a little girl? Will everyone agree with me that these are threatening behaviors? Just on my word alone? Or will my complaints be dismissed because I won’t have concrete proof that anything illegal occurred?
If a male is creeping me out in a women’s locker room, I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying a damn thing to them. It is scary to confront someone that’s scary, especially when there’s no one backing you up. And it is especially scary in this day and age of the viral “Karen” video. I don’t want to be blasted on social media because I dared to say something to someone armed with a phone. I’m not that brave. I would likely do what I always do when I encounter obnoxious male behavior. I would get out of there.
Let’s say it’s your coworker, as things currently stands. Does the gym manager throw her out? Question her id? Check genitalia? Or say sorry, she hasn’t done anything wrong, why should she leave because you think she might be a man?
What if you don’t think she might be a man, but I do?
How exactly would that play out?
“Manager! This man was staring at my little girl in the changing rooms!”
“No I wasn’t! And I’m actually a woman!”
“Yes you were! I saw you, and you’ve got a beard.”
“No I wasn’t. And that doesn’t matter, TERF.”
“Manager, won’t you do something?”
“Actually madam, we only have your word that there was any staring going on. Also, she is a woman. It says so on her driver’s license”
“Oh fuck this. Cancel my membership. I’m done with this place.”
“Jeez… what a Karen, amirite?”
Did you mean to link to a different paper?
Yeah, I can see how the big takeaway from that paragraph would be “trans people are criminals.” That’s clearly the salient concern raised by the study. And, we all know “gets charged with more crimes” is exactly the same thing as “does more crimes.”
Every woman I know who has been sexually harassed has been second-guessed or flat-out disbelieved. I had concrete proof of my own harassment, and my complaint was shrugged off as me “being scared for no reason”. It took another instance of “provable” harassment for my concern to be taken seriously. But at that point, I had been harmed repeatedly.
Am I really crazy for wanting the restrooms and the locker rooms I use to be free from this kind of shittery? Am I being paranoid just because I know the same harmful dynamics that occur in mixed-sex workplaces would also occur in mixed-sex restrooms/locker rooms and that worries me?
If it’s my coworker, I can vouch for her. I know she’s a transwoman. If there’s another woman in the room who is obviously fearful, I can pull her aside and tell her, “Hey, this chick is cool. I know her.”
Knowing my coworker, who as far as I know always uses the unisex restroom, I do not believe she would be using the women’s locker room in a way that would make other women uncomfortable. I do not believe that she would undress in the common area or use in the communal shower. I believe she would do these activities discretely, in a stall. She is also female-presenting. So her presence wouldn’t be triggering to me. A person who looks like Danielle Muscato would, though.
Does my hypothetical help you to see where I’m coming from? @Sunny_Daze seems to think that I will always know when I’m dealing with a transwoman or a man. I don’t know why I should believe this about myself, given the diversity contained in the “transwoman” label.
OK
Ask them or just go about your day.
“Questionable woman”? When you complain, you say more than that, right? Because if all you are saying is she looked weird, then, yes, not much will happen. If you say, she was staring at me while I undressed, and it made me uncomfortable, then I would expect the manager to take that more seriously.
May I ask, what is your feeling about having lesbians sharing the locker room?
And, we’ve arrived at pedophilia.
If you felt that your child was being ogled in an unacceptable manner, wouldn’t you say something to someone? Why do you think the complaint would be dismissed because the other person was a woman? There’s a big difference between letting transwomen use the bathroom and just allowing transwomen to run around doing whatever the fuck they want. Being trans does not come with a get out of jail free card.
Have we discussed the reverse case? What do you think about transmen using the men’s bathroom? How about the women’s bathroom if they’re not allowed to use the men’s?
We actually arrived at it like a thousand posts ago. It’s a common concern when the subject of gender self-certification comes up.
Yes I would. But how would I prove what I saw?
The complaint would be dismissed because I wouldn’t be able to evidence it.
I’m not talking about trans women. I’m talking about predators masquerading as trans women so they can get their rocks off. While they may not be allowed to do whatever they want, in practise, I can’t see how it would be possible to stop them from getting away with a lot of creepy shit.
I don’t mind that because men can take care of themselves. As a man, I’ve no reason whatsoever to feel threatened if a trans man gets changed next to me. He doesn’t pose a physical threat to me. It’s different for women. Is that a double-standard? Maybe, but it’s one I can live with.
Also, again, my concern is primarily with predators (who are decidedly not trans) taking advantage of loopholes in laws allowing trans women into female spaces. I doubt male spaces are in any danger of being infringed upon by pervy women pretending to be men.
What if you’re not there?
Look, it’s not about you - you’re cool. If everyone were like you, the bathroom thing wouldn’t be a problem. A lot of people aren’t cool about this. Anti trans bigotry is a real thing. Not everyone who expresses the concerns you’ve raised is a bigot, but some people who do raise them are. What does your co-worker do if there’s a woman who clocks her as trans despite everything she’s done to present as a woman, and makes a stink about it, and your not there to explain why it’s cool? What should the business that owns the bathroom do about it? How should the law handle it?
For that matter, what do you do if you are there to explain that your co-worker is cool, and the woman doesn’t believe you?
But it’s not. Those aren’t analogous. You can keep trying this angle, but it suffers from not being true.
Tranwomen obviously aren’t women in terms of their SEX, are they? So, in fact, the single sex space is not preserved. Or perhaps you could explain - as opposed to the many guarantees upthread that this wouldn’t happen, that of course gender identity isn’t the same as sex - a transwoman is of the female sex?
That’s ridiculous. It is not dehumanizing to say someone who is male is not female.