J K Rowling and the trans furore

We aren’t dealing with a women’s restroom, if that’s the attitude I must have. It’s a unisex space. It’s a “free for all” space. It isn’t a protective space for women. If we must wait for provable, documentable illegal crimes to happen before we can expect help to arrive, then the space is functioning no different than how a men’s restroom functions.

Sure, I will go about my day, just like I go about my day when I deal with other forms of male oppression. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to like it. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to have great disdain for every person who thought this plan was a good idea.

“Questionable woman”? When you complain, you say more than that, right? Because if all you are saying is she looked weird, then, yes, not much will happen. If you say, she was staring at me while I undressed, and it made me uncomfortable, then I would expect the manager to take that more seriously.

What do they do with this information? I’m asking sincerely. Do they ask the man if he was staring at me, in hopes that he will be truthful? Because you do realize that hardly ever happens, right? Most creepers don’t confess to being creepers because they want to be able to keep on creeping. So they say stuff ike, “Oh, no sir. I wasn’t staring at this fellow sister! I don’t know what she’s talking about!”

If the gym manager kicks the man out based on my word alone, then that’s awesome. That’s what I want to happen. That’s the kind of swift justice I want to see if we open the door to the women’s restroom/locker room. But I suspect you and other allies would find this problematic.

May I ask, what is your feeling about having lesbians sharing the locker room?

I don’t have any problem sharing a space for women. Lesbians are women. They need to pee and shower just like I do, and they have no other space to do these things but the “women’s room”.

Lesbians, as a class, do not act like predatory men. I have never been groped by a lesbian. I’ve never been catcalled by a lesbian. I’ve never been chased down the street by a lesbian. I’ve never been stalked by a lesbian. I’ve never been sexually harassed in the workplace by a lesbian. I’ve never been publicly humiliated by a lesbian. I’ve never had a lesbian flash her genitals at me in a menacing way. Men have done these things to me over the course of my life. And most importantly, I would have a fair shot at defending myself against a lesbian who decided to physically attack me. I’m not the weakest person in the world. I feel confident that I could hurt another woman enough to get away from her, especially if she doesn’t take me totally by surprise. But the average dude? No. I do not have that confidence at all.

This question that you’re asking me? It’s the kind of derpy question I expect in a society that treats TWAW as gospel. If I tell someone I’m creeped out by the male staring at me in the women’s locker room, I don’t want that person to come back with “What is your feeling about ciswomen staring at you?” I want it to be understood why that kind of shit is creepy. I don’t want to be likened to a racist just because I am not blind to biological sex. So I’m going to keep pushing back on this TWAW stuff. I’m not going to cosign it until I see true equality among the sexes.

I would want the laws to be written so that there is some meaningful objective difference between a transwoman and a man who just proclaims “I’m a woman”. To me, I’d like to see the laws about bathrooms say that they are for the people who genetically match that gender or people whose have made reasonable efforts so that their appearance significantly matches the typical gender norms. So a transwoman with a full beard would not be able to use the women’s bathroom because women typically don’t have full beards. But a transwoman who has made a reasonable effort for a feminine appearance would. For things like locker rooms where nudity is involved, I would want the requirements to take it a step further to where she has to have undergone some kind of gender related medical procedures, which at a minimum would be hormone therapy. If the laws were written like this, it would provide clear and objective guidelines which would make it much easier to legally permit transwomen access to women’s facilities while keeping out the troublemakers.

I cited the right paper. It helps if you actually read the whole thing, not just the abstract.

See the results section:

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

The takeaway is not that “transwomen are criminals”. The takeaway is evidence suggests they are no different than men when it comes to crime, including violent crime. If @Cheesesteak and others concede that men pose a risk to women, they need to justify why this risk profile changes with transwomen. Otherwise, I’m going to keep thinking gender dogma is the basis his position. Not science or fact.

I’ve thought about this and would like to hear from trans-people. Is there a legal formulation that you would be comfortable with? On the one hand, there are psychiatric descriptives, on the other hand, this really seems like a way to force people to “pass”. How would a transperson demonstrate their legal status, if “woman” on the driver’s license isn’t enough? Do they need to be registered somehow?

Again, why are transwomen treated differently than ciswomen? It seems to me that they are being “othered”. I don’t accept that is the correct course of action.

Because they are different from each other, that’s why. One belongs to the sex class “male” and the other belongs to the sex class “female”. You can pretend these things don’t matter, but they do.

I asked the question because it seemed implicit that the issue is sexual and sexual predation. If that’s correct, then why wouldn’t lesbians bother you if they are examining you in a sexual manner? I’m assuming your cisidentity here, if I’ve got that wrong I’ll rephrase.

If you want to see equality between the sexes, why isn’t equality for transpeople included? Why would you wait until you had a complete package of “equality” before adding this piece? Isn’t equality a game of inches, not miles?

They matter to you and it informs your belief system about what rights and privileges trans people should have.

They do not matter to me for a whole host of reasons that have been exhaustively shared throughout this thread. Transwomen are women and they should have equality and civil rights.

Because not everyone believes that a male who identifies as a woman is exactly like “cis women” except for anatomy. No everyone is a gender essentialist.

If you believe transwomen are women, do you have an explanation for why transwomen are indistinguishable from men when it comes to crime? If gender is real and has an influence on behaviors and personality, shouldn’t there more a lot similarity between women and transwomen?

This is like asking why wouldn’t Golden Retrievers bother @monstro if they were growling at her, after she just explained why she’s worried about wolves.

Can you find a single new story of a lesbian raping and killing a strange woman? Not just in a restroom or locker room, but literally anywhere? I’m sure it’s happened at least once, but I’m sure in the time it would take someone to find a hit, I could find literally thousands of men doing this shit.

There are significant statistics regarding women attacking women in prison. Looking at victimization rates in jail, these statistics (PDF) say that the rate of inmate-on-
inmate sexual victimization was at least three times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%).

So it is more common, in prison, for a woman to sexually victimize another woman than for a male inmate to experience the same. Yet the stereotype of men raping other men seems to prevail.

This doesn’t address the “and killing” a strange woman part, though. And intimate violence is part of that as well.

Show me evidence that lesbians have a high likelihood of being sexual predators, and maybe I will be afraid of them too. But my own experience does not support this finding. My own experience supports the finding that male predators are much more abundant and dangerous than female predators. Why wouldn’t this be scary?

If you want to see equality between the sexes, why isn’t equality for transpeople included?

Of course I want equality for transpeople. I want them to have the same access to jobs, housing, educational opportunities, and healthcare that everyone else has.

I just don’t think every single transwoman is a woman. I just don’t believe every male who enters a woman’s space should be assumed to be a woman.

Do you think an equal society is one where everyone’s self-perceptions are always validated and affirmed, no matter what? Or do you think an equal society is one where people are treated fairly, with no one being asked to sacrifice safety and security for minimal returns? Because the second kind of society is the one I want to see. I don’t want to live in a society where someone’s desire to do whatever they want are elevated over someone else’s desire to be safe and secure.

I stated before that I am fine with the status quo, at least as it exists in states like here in California. From what I understand from proposed laws like the Gender Recognition Reform in Scotland that people keep bringing up, it would just bring them in line with where we are here. And we are being “othered”. If we are not called men here we are accused of stealing women’s spaces or we are considered criminals or perverts or rapists or whatever. The bigots here will use every excuse possible to deny us equal rights and to gatekeep womanhood.

One of the objections I don’t get to having statutory declaration, rather than medicalization, be at the heart of transitioning- wouldn’t that decrease the risk of children undergoing medical treatment at a young age? I’m not sure how prevalent it actually is, but it seems like it would easier on young people.

The “furor” does seem to follow the path taken by other civil rights movements.

I’m not surprised by these statistics, to be honest. Most female inmates are not violent offenders. The few who are violent can victimize others without worrying about getting their asses beaten by experienced street fighters.

Men who choose to rape have to look harder to find vulnerable marks.

Spin, spin, spin. You show that a person can spin anything to fit their ideology.

Do you have “spin” to explain why transwomen are no different than men in terms of violent crime? Because that’s in some serious need of spin if you ever want TWAW to be the mainstream opinion.

I agree with @Miller on this that the relevant part is: “Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.” It doesn’t state that we are responsible for more violent crime, just that we were arrested and convicted of it more. And the part that it is not significant after 1989 supports the idea that as acceptance of transgender people increased, the arrests and convictions decreased. But there is a lot of other bullshit in this study, most likely due to how old it is.

I would need to see evidence that motivation for surgery and the use of cross-sex hormone has anything to do with being legally recognized as one’s desired gender. Seems much more likely that the desire to physically pass and the alleviation of gender dysphoria would be of much greater importance.

So I’m going to dish out to you what you dished out to me.

Ready for it?

Spin, spin, spin. You show that a person can spin anything to fit their ideology.

If this data is wrong, help me out here. Point me to some more current statistics that show transwomen are more like women in terms of their crime potential than men. Because I’m having a hard time finding this data. And surely, if alll the promises and assurances are true, this data exists, right? There’s no way anyone would be making these promises and assurances without facts and figures to provide solid support, right?