Ultimately it doesn’t matter to me if it is true or not, accusations of criminality are not a reason to discriminate against someone. We see this right now with how people and the police view Black people in this country. They have a higher rate of criminality due to poor socioeconomic situations and systemic racism, but racists see it as part of their genetic makeup and so they are seen as inherently less than equal than other people, which makes it okay to discriminate against them, right?
You, like @Miller, aren’t interpreting this correctly. Comparing pre- and post-transition crime rates was only one analysis the researchers did. And they found what is stated above.
In a separate analysis, they compared crime rates between transwomen and male controls (“cismen”) and found they were statistically similar. This was true regardless of when transition occurred. See my last response to @Miller to see this result spelled out.
If you are going to shoot down a scientific paper, it’s always a good idea to show you actually comprehend it.
In less than a couple of hours, we’ve gone from “women are just crazy paranoid bigots for thinking this increases their exposure to predators” to “so what if women face greater exposure to predators, my rights come first.”
Amazing.
I’ve been catcalled by a lesbian - I told the story over in the “catcall” thread a while back.
I’ve been groped by a lesbian - twice, IIRC. One time -about 10 years ago - I was actually in a bathroom, the bathroom in a residence at a private party. I was hanging out in the bathroom with 5 or 6 people smoking a joint and talking, people starting wandering out until it was just me and this other woman and the next thing I know her arm is around my waist and her tongue is down my throat. Although she was probably bisexual as she was at the party with her husband. I had met them earlier that day at the party, it was an all day event.
The other time a friend of mine put her hand on my bare inner thigh and stroked it ( I was wearing short shorts) right after coming out to me. I’ve been propositioned Intimately a few other times, but none of those women initiated physical contact.
And back when I worked in show business, there was a well-known gay female actress that I was warned about several times (that whisper network) - apparently she had a reputation for cornering and assaulting women .
Sorry for the MPSIMS. And once again, I disagree with your assessment of the safety factor.
FTR, my “interpretation” is that skipping over “The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9).” to focus on the crime statistics is kind of fucked up.
I didn’t do a risk assessment. So I don’t know what you’re disagreeing with me about. I simply explained why I would be more creeped out by men in the locker room than I would be of lesbians in the locker room. I cited my own experience.
We could do a poll for Doper women and ask, “Who is more likely to make you fear for your personal safety? A strange man or a strange lesbian?” Do you really think I’d be the only woman who would endorse the first option? I know I am a bit of a weirdo sometimes, but I really don’t think I’m that weird.
I mean, shit. It’s this kind of second-guessing that makes me so frustrated with this entire debate. If we’re suddenly OK with the two sexes peeing and undressing together and we’re confident there’d be no added danger to anyone involve, then why aren’t we all for abolishing sex-segregated facilities? What freakin’ purpose do they serve? It certainly isn’t gender affirmation, since that’s some newfangled shit and 99% of humanity doesn’t need gender affirmation, since all they have to do is pull down their pants to be reminded of what group they belong to.
Believing that transwomen should be allowed to seek refuge in the women’s restroom so they won’t be victimized by men, while simultaneously explaining to a ciswoman that she has more to fear from other women than she does men…I can’t even with this. It’s crazy, @Ann_Hedonia. Maybe you don’t intend this, but the message I get from your post is that you think I’m stupid and/or hypersensitive for being more afraid of strange men than I am of strange women.
I wish I had a better adjective than “crazy”, but it’s late and I’m tired.
Her point wasn’t about suicide or mortality rates. Her focus was always on crime statistics, maybe because we’ve been talking about harm, violence, and crime for the last umpity-ump posts.
What you are doing is red herring-ish. Suicide is messed up, but what does that have to do with ciswomen? Do you think ciswomen are responsible for transwomen’s suicides and need for psychiatric inpatient care?
I’m honestly confused why you think @YWTF should focus on this. Do you not think she can’t produce equally fucked-up statistics about women? What is this, the Oppression Olympics?
The TERFy ones are (partially)
All they have to do is look at what women go through even just riding the bus or taking the train or even just existing in public. The perverts who oh so accidentally brush their arm or hand against a woman’s rear end as they walk by to exit the train. It’s funny how the train is never so crowded that it causes a woman to “inadvertently” touch my ass, it’s always a man. Or the guys who just so happen to brush their hand against a woman’s breast as they reach in front of her in the grocery store to get a can of soup off the shelf. Or oopsie, the train lurched and I put my hand out to stop my fall, it was completely coincidental that my hand landed on your breast.
I don’t even take public transportation anymore because the number of times that things like that happened to me.
We’re supposed to believe that these same perverts will constrain themselves when they’re given free rein to walk into a room where women are nude, showering or getting undressed? Yeah right.
This is so well put. Why would the locker room be the one area where men suddenly behave? (#notallmen) They don’t behave on the bus/train, but they will when they can walk into a room where there are naked women and all they have to do to get in is say 3 little words? (I’m a woman.)
All of those things have happened to me as well except I’ve never been groped or flashed. And it was always a man or a group of guys. Never once has a woman followed me for a block or two and made crass comments about my body like men have. Never once has a woman stranger grabbed my hand without permission and refused to let go like several different men have. Never has a female coworker deliberately misinterpreted what I said to turn it into a sexual innuendo like male coworkers have. I could go on and on and on.
I’m pretty sure that a private establishment is allowed to exclude whoever they want as long as they don’t accept public funds. So I think that you can have a women’s gym and ban transgendered people; I think that’s the manner in which some golf courses and country clubs are able to exclude black people and Jews even to this day. For the record, I don’t want to see a gym that bans trans people; that would be awful, (the same way that the country clubs that ban African-Americans and Jews are awful.) I just wish that trans advocates would bend just a little and would be more willing to take other people’s needs and feelings into account to come up with solutions that work for everyone.
Treated like any other woman?, or any other female? Do you think there is any difference? However you choose to identify in terms of gender, the fact remains that a transwoman is biologically male and that may be relevant in certain circumstances. I trust biology doesn’t insult you? I make no apology for being clear about this because unless that fact is accepted the following paragraphs will mean nothing to you.
Many groups that are concerned about this issue are concerned that the two are being confused, either by accident or design.
There is concern that areas reserved for females have good reason for not giving open access for biological males. (sport, restrooms, changing rooms, prisons, shelters etc.)
Not all areas of course, there are many circumstances, probably the vast majority, where allowing biological males to be considered as “women” matters not one jot and impacts no-one. (and an acceptance of that seems to be pretty much universal).
However. That group thinks there are debatable areas where biology, and the traits arising from that, does matter. To gain access to those areas it seems reasonable to expect a certain level of serious effort on behalf of the trans person to live as that other sex, up to and including physical alteration.
So the question that concerns many is, (and it interests me, though I have no dog in this fight) is it OK for a biological male to merely state they are a woman, do nothing else, and so gain full access to all female/woman-only spaces/privileges/accreditation?
If you don’t fully accept the above then two things you need to acknowledge.
- you are in favour of some form of gatekeeping and that is a worthwhile discussion to have.
- there are various campaigns around the world that are pushing for such a scenario, that is a demonstrable fact, and it should be possible to argue against it without being labelled “trans-phobic”.
Unlike you, I do not assume that gatekeeping is responsible for the majority of trans suicide rates. There is no scientific evidence for this claim. There is some logic to it as a hypothesis, but there are other logical hypotheses we need to consider. Anyone who believes their humanity is tied up with the sign hanging above the door to their restroom likely has very deep psychological issues. Anyone who needs affirmation that badly is highly insecure and probably suffering from very low self-esteem driven primarily by some kind of depression or dysphoria. Are all trans folks like this? Of course not. But it is reasonable to assume mentally unwell people are prone to misdiagnosing themselves and/or mistreating themselves. Mentally unwell are prone to taking drastic measures to deal with their depression/dysphoria. Drastic measures, especially when they are undertaken without any guidance from a medical or psychological professional, don’t always work. Just like with any strategy, drastic measures will SOMETIMES make things worse and cause an individual to experience MORE pain and suffering. Especially when peer pressure has led them to their treatment plan and then are backed into a corner of regret that they don’t know how to get out of, since once you say the words “I am a woman”, you’re committing yourself to “I am a woman” and no one wants to be the guy who says “Uh…remember when I said I was a woman? And I yelled at everyone who dead-named me and misgendered me? I was wrong about all that. My bad. I’m going by John again. Do you still love me?”
It’s bullshit to put the blame for this on ciswomen. And characterizing trans people as so fragile that they suicide themselves at the slightest look of disapproval is HARMFUL TO THEM. Why would I treat them as equal to ciswomen, when most ciswomen face misogynistic and sexist bullshit every day but still find a way to power through the pain? Why wouldn’t I feel like dragging suicide into this conversation–when we are talking about harm to ciswomen–isn’t a form of emotional blackmail? “If you don’t welcome any and all transwomen into your spaces and treat them exactly how you would treat ciswomen, you’re killing them!” This is crazy bananas, and I’m not falling for it. Trans people are prone to mental illness for a variety of reasons. They will still be prone to mental illness even if they are allowed to do whatever they want. Society does not indulge any other mentally ill-prone segment of society on everything they want. So why should trans people be treated any differently? That is not fairness. That’s giving one group a benefit that NO ONE ELSE ON THE PLANET HAS.
Ciswomen have every right to question whether a male-bodied male in their space is one of them. Shaming a ciswoman for a natural reaction but NOT shaming the male-bodied male for taking advantage of a system designed for female people is oppression. It’s elevating males’ feelings over females’ feelings–a dynamic that has been with us since the beginning of time. And entrenching this dynamic in women’s spaces will lead to increases suicides in women, since sexual assault and rape are the leading causes of suicide. I suspect this is true for trans as well as cis. I really doubt that ciswomen are sexually assaulting and raping transwomen. That would be members of your gender class who are doing that shit.
So why don’t you throw insults at the members of your gender class and leave mine the fuck alone?
Focusing on crime statistics when the subject of conversation is crime statistics is called staying focused on the subject of conversation. But ok, let’s talk about the above.
Suicide rates post-transition were found to be higher than birth sex controls. How does one reconcile this sobering information with the following things:
- Efforts within the trans community to remove medical and psychological evaluations as gatekeeping criteria
- The view that gender dysphoria is not a mental health issue
- The off-repeated claim that people are suicide risks if they aren’t allowed to transition
Parents are being told right now that supporting their child’s desire to transition is what is in their child’s best interest. But this study actually contradicts this. It is odd and sad you think it actually supports your side of the debate, when really it supports the view that we are dealing with a public health problem that is only being exacerbated by a flawed ideology.
Did I say anything about the majority? No, I did not. So someone is assuming, and it isn’t me.
Someone thinks that harmful insults like TERF are persuasive, and it isn’t me.
The first rule of misogyny is to blame women for what men do. Even though I cannot find one report of a TERF killing or even assaulting a transgender person (and I’ve looked hard), it is they—these villainous people who have been singled out with their own four-letter term)— who are to blame for the poor mental health of transwomen.
I’m not trying to persuade you of anything. This is IMHO, not GD. I was giving my opinion on part of your post (informed by what my trans friends have said to me.) Nor was TERF directed at you (but if you wish to own it, feel free).
“Partially”, I said. That’s what transwomen have said.
According to this cite, about 0.6% of the American adult population identifies as transgender:
I have been experiencing some insomnia lately. Whenever I have trouble sleeping, I have deep thoughts.
I know there are transwomen all around me that I don’t know are transwomen because they are sufficiently female-passing. I occasionally see folks that I can recognize as transwomen, because they are obvious males dressed in feminine clothing. But I would not say that this is a common occurrence for me (even pre-pandemic).
So what I surmise from my own experience is that I should not expect to see a bunch of obvious males in women’s spaces. I will be generous and say that I should not expect to see obvious male individuals in my gym’s locker room more than 1% of the time. I might see the same one on a regular basis (let’s say weekly or biweekly). But I would not expect to see multiple male individuals in the women’s locker room on a regular basis. Especially at the same time, unless they are friends.
So if we roll out TWAW as an institutional policy and I see multiple male individuals in the women’s locker room on a regular basis? Let’s say I encounter a different individual every time I’m in the spot. It will be hard for me to not be concerned. Because it will signal to me we either have an epidemic of gender dysphoric males (which is a public health problem) or men are invading women’s spaces without anyone doing anything about it (which poses a security threat to me and other women).
I’m not a fan of slippery slope argumentation, but I don’t think it is always a fallacy. I posed a similar question to the one I’m about to ask ages ago and never got an answer from anyone. If we roll out TWAW as an institutional policy and a poll finds that 10% of men have entered women’s spaces who wouldn’t have otherwise done so, would this constitute harm? Because I think it would. It would confirm to me that women’s spaces aren’t safe spaces. Invaders are not only allowed inside, but there’s also nothing women can do to prevent them from coming in. Especially when men are praised for being courageous and brave enough to go inside. Other men will encourage them. Women allies will encourage them. The most masculine, physically-intimidating men can be in the women’s restroom and earn applause and nods of approval, while the ciswomen who are intimidated by them will be shamed and treated like bigots. The room could turn into a sausage fest, with the only ones freaking out about this being the folks demonized as TERFs. The TWAW warriors will just act like woman dick is a totally normal thing and if you ain’t down for woman dick, you are literally killing transwomen. (And not only will you be called transphobic, but you will be called lesbophobic, since woman dick will be heavily associated with transwomen lesbians in this brave new world of TWAW).
If folks don’t have a problem with ciswomen being forced to poop and undress admist a sausage fest, they should be honest and upfront about it by calling for unisex facilities. Instead of asking ciswomen do they want transwomen to have access to women’s locker rooms, ask ciswomen do they want their restrooms turned into unisex locker rooms. Only when you frame the question like this will you get the truth. Maybe if allies hear the truth, they will stop being so confident that their side is the righteous one.
One contributing factor of male aggression is testosterone level. I would make a guess that transwomen who are on testosterone suppression therapy would exhibit less of this behavior compared to transwomen who aren’t. I would assume that transwomen who aren’t on hormone therapy would be closer to typical male behavior than female behavior because their hormone levels would be unchanged. That may be one reason to require that transwomen who get access to traditionally woman-segregated spaces must be on hormone therapy. An increase in estrogen and reduction in testosterone should mean that typical male aggression would not be normal.
I remember hearing a podcast from a transman who was relating his experience. He said that when he started testosterone therapy, he was shocked at how compelled he felt to look at women. When a woman walked by, he would turn and watch her from behind. He said he was shocked at his behavior because he considered himself a feminist. Although this is the opposite situation of a transwoman, it does demonstrate the effect that increased testosterone has on this kind of behavior.
@Boudicca90, I was wondering if you could share if you noticed any changes in how you felt about this kind of thing before and after you did hormone therapy. I don’t mean to say that you were aggressive or anything, but did you notice any changes in how much you noticed potential romantic partners? Is it the same as before or is it different now?
TWAW is already institutional policy.
I went to this transgender equality map and they identify that 20 states + DC specifically protect gender identity WRT use of public accommodations. Over 140 million people, over 70 million women, are living in those areas, you may be living in one yourself for all I know. Transwomen in those areas are specifically protected from discrimination regarding the use of the Womens’ rest rooms, locker rooms and changing rooms.
They are not required to present papers to an attendant, or assert anything other than “I am a woman” to gain access. Exactly what you fear.
This is real, it’s already the law, it’s not hypothetical. It is anti-scientific to assert hypothetical results to a situation that is currently happening, and is easily observed.
We have a study of unisex changing rooms in public pools that clearly shows safety issues with that model of providing services. These studies are simple, they are the most basic studies of public safety imaginable, yet we remarkably have none that show an increased risk for the 70 million women living under these laws.
Do you believe that these 70 million women are routinely finding men invading their protected space and not talking about it?