I think women are always talking about male violence and their fears with respect to male violence. But they are frequently ignored or dismissed.
I don’t know what you mean by TWAW being institutional policy. Allowing transwomen to use women’s facilities is not the same thing as allowing males to have unrestricted access to women’s spaces. Right now, I can go into any public women’s restroom and have some degree of confidence that a rando male in that space will at least be questioned if I point him out to an authority. I don’t want this practice to end. If this practice doesn’t end even under a TWAW framework, then cool! Maybe I really am being a hysterical ninny. But if I can’t always expect that kind of response, then I will not stop being concerned. Telling me that 70 million other women don’t seem to be concerned isn’t persuasive to me, because 1) other women’s feelings have no bearing on my own and 2) I don’t know whether the women really are unconcerned. The toxicity of this discourse keeps people from freely talking about their negative feelings, because it’s like only one group is allowed to have negative feelings. Everyone else is expected to plaster a big smile on their face and recite all the catchy slogans.
And because it’s transwomen saying that then it couldn’t possibly be misogyny, right?
For all the talk about rights to access to single-sex restrooms and locker rooms, discrimination in the realm of romantic and sexual relationships is probably much more relevant to trans satisfaction in life. Unfortunately, discrimination of this kind can’t be addressed via legislation and it can’t be addressed through finger wagging either.
Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’
…
Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man . There was no similar discrimination against trans men among those expected to be attracted to men: 0% of trans-inclusive gay men and only 5% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks excluded trans men from their dating pool.
For the most part, a trans person’s gender identity does not cause prospective dating partners to treat them as their desired sex/gender. Transwomen in particular have a uphill battle in being treated as women. Intimate partners are an important source of validation when it comes to sexual desirability and gender affirmation; the mental toll incurred by this lack of support is probably huge. Much more so than what TERF’s opinions about women’s restrooms.
I don’t have all the answers, but it must be highly frustrating to hear TWAW being asserted by allies, all the while knowing that these same allies are almost always going to swipe left for them.
I had a look at that site but I’m afraid I couldn’t find anything on there to corroborate any of this. It’s a big site, and I’m sure I just missed it, but would you mind linking to the specific page or pages which back up your claims? Not that I disbelieve you or anything, I’d just like to have a closer look at the data.
I also tried googling and picked a state at random (California) but the only info I could find pertained to a 2016 law mandating that businesses make single stall toilets unisex. I don’t think anyone in this thread would have a problem with that and it’s not really what we’re worried about.
Wrong. Even cis-women are capable of misogyny, why would trans-women be any different?
In this case, I don’t believe it’s misogyny because I’m well aware how the transwomen in question act towards ciswomen who aren’t transphobes.
I think lesbians deserve rights but I’m not going to want to sleep with one, either. What does who you want to date or fuck have to do with anything? If I were straight but still thought gays deserved rights, would I be a hypocrite for not visiting bathhouses? For the record, I’m a trans ally and if I were single, I’d happily date transwomen. Not all transwomen, but then, I wouldn’t date just any ciswoman, either.
Wait, are you really under the impression that women aren’t talking about this? The concept of TERFs wouldn’t exist if they weren’t a growing body of women calling out bad experiences and encounters they’ve had since single-sex policies have changed.
I have been reading narratives from males who have detransitioned. A reccurring theme is the realization that one was motivated to transition due to autogynephilia rather than conventional gender dysphoria. Going on HRT will “cure” this problem in some segment of males because their libidos decrease so much on estrogen (and without testosterone). On HRT, they stop getting their kicks off by dressing like a girl/woman. They stop feeling gender dysphoric and start experiencing social dysphoria–because they realize they are just a dude wearing a skirt and they stand out like a sore thumb.
Interestingly, males who find themselves in this predicament are often afraid to get off HRT because they are scared of their libido. They don’t want to be gender dysphoric again, but they don’t want to be a woman.
I actually find myself having sympathy for them, despite being grossed out by fetishes in general. It would be great if HRT could be viewed as a potential treatment for male sexual perversion or maladaptive behaviors rather than something that always “womanizes” someone. If women can take hormones to help manage the psychological problems caused by their biological realities, then why shouldn’t men?
It’s good that you don’t want to sleep with a lesbian because nonconsensual sex is bad. Seriously doubt you’d kick Kate McKinnon out of your bed, though.
If “treating someone as a woman” doesn’t extend to the one aspect of the human condition fundamental to the existence of sex categories—sexuality—then as a concept it lacks meaning. It’s an empty and disingenuous statement. It sets a trans kid up for some serious disillusionment when they realize that TWAW comes with a shit ton of fine print.
There’s a big difference between requiring hormone therapy or surgery and requiring a diagnosis. And like YWTF said, I don’t think it’s a primary motivation for young people transitioning.
Having said that, I do think there can be contradictions between what is best for women’s rights, or society as a whole, and what is best for individual trans people. That’s why we need to compromise.
I wish we could avoid making laws at all and just use common sense. I don’t want a system where people have to show their birth certificates to go to the bathroom or ordinary trans men and women are harassed while going about their day, and I also don’t want to give free rein to creeps like Yaniv because businesses are afraid of being labelled transphobic if they do anything about them. And I know there really are transphobes around so we can’t just trust any woman who complains. But laws can too easily produce absurd situations, from the bearded transman forced to use the ladies loo to the transgender girls with male biology and testosterone levels winning women’s athletic events.
Is there room for a view that both these things are wrong, or does the culture war mean we all have to pick one side or the other?
It’s not as bad as all that. Trans people can sleep with other trans people, they are the one group who should have no problem seeing gender identity as more important than genitals.
But I do think it’s bad to teach kids they can be whatever gender they want as if there are no consequences to that decision. Even if we can reach a state of zero discrimination in society, medical science is nowhere near the point of giving someone the body of the opposite sex, let alone doing so painlessly, easily and cheaply, and with no side effects. And they are likely to have a harder time finding sexual and romantic partners because for most people sex is the single most important factor in physical attraction.
I agree with you. And it wouldn’t even need to be estrogen that they are given, just T-blockers. The goal should be to tone down maladaptive compulsions without subjecting a man to the potentially dysphoria-inducing side effects of estrogen (like breast development and redistributed body fat).
Trans people are biased against trans people too (the study I cited supports this). What should be happening in the dating field doesn’t mean it is actually happening, even among people that are the biggest proponents of gender ideology.
By “not want to sleep with one”, I’m not making a statement on whether I find any particular lesbian physically attractive, so I don’t know where this prurient tack is going. I’m talking about groups that I may support but not want to sleep with - in the case of lesbians, it’s got bugger all to do with their attractiveness, and everything to do with reciprocity.
Reciprocity is not the same as consent, so I don’t know why you brought up that red herring. I do want to sleep with het- women, but I wouldn’t violate consent there, either.
Well, that’s just bullshit. Life is not all about sex, and I desire rights for lots of groups I have no desire to fuck.
This whole tack is just a ridiculous attempt to paint male trans allies as hypocrites, and it’s as transparent as if you were calling out straight gay allies for not desiring cock.
With transvestic fetishism, individuals exhibit significant distress or harm. They actually feel gender dysphoria and are thus motivated to get help. Instead of recommending to these folks that they transition, medical professionals could just recommend T-blockers and allow their patient to take a wait and see approach. If the dysphoria is still present, then maybe they really are a woman and transitioning will help them. But if the dysphoria goes away, they can keep on keeping on without doing anything else.
It must be embarrassing to go through the stress of transitioning only to realize you made a mistake. Transitioning brings so many new things–new name, new clothes, new mannerisms, new friends, new political identity. And all of that is put in jeopardy when you detransition. I’m curious how many trans folks are “meh” about their acquired gender, but they don’t want to deal with the social backlash of going back to their birth gender. And after you’ve lopped off certain parts, it’s impossible to go back and still have a “normal” life.
They’re a lot less biased, although I don’t think a survey like that is the best way of finding out people’s real attitudes. Stats from a dating site would be much more revealing.
This part is interesting:
A cynical part of me wonders how many of the survey participants understand the terms ‘trans man’ and ‘trans woman’ and how many believe they mean the opposite of what they do. But we can only assume that for some people sex is just more important than gender when it comes to sexual attraction.
I also saw this paragraph:
People have already talked about the suicide statistics, but they at least suggest many trans people continue to need counselling/mental health help even after transition, which is rather contrary to the current model (and afaik, common practice) which says other mental health issues are secondary to dysphoria and transition should help with them too. It also suggests mental health practitioners will need to continue to play a role in treatment, despite the push towards an ‘informed consent’ model where they are not required.
This whole sidetrack was started because you said TERFs opinions about women’s spaces are (partially) responsible for suicidality in trans.
I’m saying this is probably bullshit. Transwomen aren’t offing themselves because they can’t get in to the women’s locker room. This kind of discrimination matters a lot less psychologically than the day-to-day discrimination that occurs with respect to relationships, and all the gender affirmative policies in the world will not change this.
The resentment towards TERFs is misdirected energy.
The difference is that one interpretation is that TWAW means that TW fit in the concept of women while another interpretation is that TWAW means that TW are exactly equivalent to women. It would be like saying:
I like to date women
Transwomen are women
Therefore, I must like to date transwomen
The first two statements are true, but the conclusion is incorrect because the meaning of “women” was different in each line. In the first line it meant specifically cis-women and in the second it meant the general concept of women. There are all kinds of similar linguistic fallacies, such as:
I like milk in my cereal
Almond milk is milk
Therefore, I must like almond milk in my cereal
My feeling is that when people say TWAW, their true meaning is “TW fit into the concept of women” as opposed to meaning “TW are exactly the same as cis-women”
Do you think ciswomen are responsible for transwomen’s suicides and need for psychiatric inpatient care?
She didn’t assert they played no role; she asked whether they were responsible for trans suicidality. Your response was:
The TERFy ones are (partially)
And this is bullshit. The mental health challenges facing the trans community are infinitely larger that the views of women who are against the inclusion of self-identifying transwomen in spaces reserved for females.