No one in here is demanding bathroom bills or locker room bills. What we are proposing is that instead of giving transwomen the right to claim space in the women’s room—even males that are wearing Catholic school uniforms, and even males that look every bit as butch as your typical NFL player—we provide 1)mixed-sex/gender neutral spaces and 2)allow females the right to single-sex accommodations.
For the 100th time, transmen would never be forced to use women’s rooms under this proposal. They could use the gender-neutral option or the men’s room. If men have a problem with this, then let them fight that battle. I’m only concerned about maintaining safety and security in female spaces.
We are seeing an aggressive refusal to even consider these options because gender affirmation is being treated as more critical to life and well-being than limiting female exposure to opportunist predators.
I’m really curious about this. What does it mean to say you would’ve call him/her out? What exactly would you be saying to him/her? “You’re too athletic to be a transwoman and your Hello Kitty backpack is a dead giveaway that you are a man…get out of here!”
Can you explain how trying to exclude a male based on their clothes and accoutrements is any more defensible than trying to exclude a male based on them simply being a male? If a woman is allowed to be as athletic as she wants to be and can be adorned in all kinds of childish paraphernalia without being thrown out of the ladies room, you shouldn’t be for the discrimination of transwomen when they do the same thing. Not unless you want to be accused of transphobia.
For me and every other transgender person I know, segregation is not an option. We aren’t some third sex like other cultures like to define us as, so I would be against treating us as one. We don’t need or want separate spaces for us, we just want to be treated like the gender we are. And that goes for trans men too, even though you don’t give a crap about them, I do.
Although I am absolutely behind more private stalls in locker rooms and such, since I don’t like being naked around strangers period, regardless of their gender. Funny, one of the main complaints of us gays serving in the military was how uncomfortable we would make straight guys by simply being in the shower with them. But I was always the one who felt uncomfortable in those situations.
Should we be pushing for gender affirming restrooms/locker rooms for the other 50 or so gender identities out there that don’t have gender affirming facilities?
If the nonbinary/gender fluid folks one day outnumber your folks (they could already for all I know) and they start pushing for the same rights you have, on what basis would the rest of us have to deny them?
This is why I think third spaces (or turning men’s restrooms into unisex spaces) make much more sense than giving males unrestricted access to women’s spaces. Women do not use these spaces to have their gender affirmed. They use them because they are females, and females are disproportionally victimized by males when it comes to sexual acts and crimes. We use these spaces because they provide some refuge from the biological realities that put us at a disadvantage. They give us a temporary break from the hassles and threats we face outside of those spaces.
I don’t have confidence that I will always be able to tell the difference between a female-presenting transwoman and a man in a wig and skirt. I don’t have confidence that I will always be able to distinguish a masculine transwoman from a masculine man. Kudos to you if you can and kudos to you if you have the confidence to ask a suspicious individual what their gender identity is and discern whether they are being honest. I lack these skills. So why the hell wouldn’t I be concerned what’s going to happen as more males come out as transwomen and more people in general recite the TWAW mantra? If I’m ever victimized by a male in a women’s space who was allowed to be there because no one is brave enough to endure “TERF” being hurled at them, then I’m not going to feel comfortable talking about what happened to me. Just like I’m not going to feel comfortable talking about my experiences with rape and sexual assault in general. Why won’t I feel comfortable? Because I know people will blame me somehow.
From some people I’ll have to hear: “You saw that man in the restroom. You admit that you were nervous when you saw him. So why did you go in there? You could have backed out if you had wanted to. You could have gone to the authorities. Since you didn’t do these things, you were asking for it, you foolish woman.”
From other people, I’ll have to hear: “That man was obviously not a transwoman! He was obviously a man, even though he said he was a woman and he was wearing a wig. So don’t pin this on transwomen, you TERF!”
I have spent 40+ years hearing the “foolish woman” bullshit. So forgive me for not elevating your desire to have your gender affirmed over my own desire not to another kind of hateful bullshit dumped on me and others like me.
I absolutely agree there should be more unisex restrooms and such for those non-binary or genderqueer people who don’t fit easily into a particular gender, but I would be against us transpeople being forced to use them. I’m fine with it as another option for those who want to use it.
How would you feel if they renamed the existing women’s bathrooms and lockerrooms to be called “Genetically XX-people room” and then created a separate room for women? That would make sense from just the perspective of the number of people who would need to use each space.
I will tell you what I think. I have no doubt people will think I’m just being a big trans-hating meano for what I’m about to say, but I don’t care.
I’m concerned that we will get a noticeable uptick in trans-identifying people because of the pandemic.
Young people are not socializing in “meat space” as much as they were pre-pandemic. They are self-isolating. They are living almost exclusively in virtual space right now. On places like reddit. Simultaneously, they are dealing with depression and anxiety because their future plans have been derailed big time.
So if you are feeling dysphoric and self-hating, what do you do? Well, you will likely go on the internet and try to find your people. You might end up with the incels if you’re a boy who has never had a girlfriend. You might end up with the self-diagnosed autists if you’ve never had friends and you’re geeky. If you’re gender non-conforming, guess who you’re going to gravitate towards? You might find your peeps on the trans or nonbinary forums. And in these places, you will find people who will sell you on the idea that you are “one of us”.
Self-isolation increases anxiety. We all know this. Anxiety can cause a person to obsess. A person who obsesses over their physical appearance, for instance, suffers from body dysphoria. If this person happens to be a bit gender non-conforming, it will be easy for them–given the messaging bombarding them on the internet–to believe that transitioning will provide the relief they need. And they will find an audience on the internet who totally validate their decision. A guy can put on a dress, put on some lip gloss, and take a selfie of themselves with a cute smile and get a shitload of “yassss” on social media. Why wouldn’t that make someone feel good ,especially if they’ve never gotten that kind of positive attention before?
I’m not a psychologist so I might be full of shit right now. I fully admit that this. But the thing is, if we do see a surge in trans-identifying folks, what’s the appropriate response? Is it transphobic to not want this to happen? Is it wrong to see something like this as a public health issue? Because Imma be honest. I don’t want it to happen. And if I’m a bad person for not wanting it to happen, then I don’t know why people are envisioning a world where trans folks will always be a tiny percentage of the population. If a women’s restroom with just as many males as females isn’t troubling to anyone but TERFs, then let’s stop calling them "women’s’ restrooms and just call them unisex. If we aren’t prepared to have half of menfolk identifying as woman and thus females, then let’s stop browbeating those who want some gatekeeping for the “woman” label.
Let me make this clear, I would resist any attempt to try to segregate us from other women, including using mealy-mouthed justifications like this. Just say you don’t want us in women’s restrooms at all and let’s be done with this charade.
But what if those groups insisted that unisex bathrooms weren’t gender affirming enough and that they are entitled to have their gender affirmed just as much as you do?
I don’t understand why a masculine transwoman should be more entitled to a special place than an effeminate genderqueer man.
As has been made abundantly clear, genetically XX are not women. Someone’s gender has nothing to do with their genetics. Clearly that’s not a requirement for being a woman. People can pick which ever room they want. The genetically-XX room is for people who need the facilities designed around genetically-XX biology regardless of how someone identifies.
I already stated i’m not going to indulge any more “what if” scenarios for laws that are currently in place and that i’m perfectly fine with. Your fears of the future are your own.
So now you want to segregate us based on genetics? Wow, these justifications just become clearer and clearer to me…
You have said it time and time again in your posts, sometimes even in the same sentence where you claim to support us, and it is all bullshit. You are like one of those people from the south who say something racist, but they say it in a “nice” way so it makes it harder to call them out on it and then claim YOU are the racist. Claim victimhood and martyrdom all you want, i’m not going to indulge you.
It’s one thing for a woman to have this line of inquiry directed at her after she was victimized. Imagine how horrible it would be if their underage daughter was victimized because they dropped their guard with the wrong person. Maybe they were raised to believe “woman” is a feeling and thus, you can’t tell who is one or who isn’t unless they reveal their identity to you. So what happens when they are too comfortable around a strange male and they get hurt? As a parent, this would haunt me.
When a male appears in a space reserved for women, I want that to always trigger alarm bells in my daughters’ heads. Regardless of what the male is wearing or how much femininity they are broadcasting, I want my daughters to be more watchful around them than they would around a female. I would prefer they make haste out of there rather than talk themselves into staying.
Sex-segregation policies are useful in one important way: screening out good guys so that safe conclusions can be drawn about the men who don’t self-exclude. Men who are law-abiding, not sociopathic, and not misogynist generally don’t feel entitled to the women’s room. These men are self-aware and sensitive enough to know their presence in a room where women and girls are undressed would be scary and disruptive. So when good guys are screened out, that means it is generally only bad men that will be in there. This is a risk assessment that is simple enough for a child to do and understand.
The problem with gender affirmative policies is that they complicate this risk asssment process. While @Ann_Hedonia feels like she can confidently differentiate men from transwomen based on their clothing and accessories, a 11 year old girl is unlikely to have these discernment skills. A 11 year old also isn’t in any position to “call out” anyone; she can’t be responsible for this kind of policing. So what should her parents be teaching her when she’s out in the world? Does this sound like prudent advice to be giving girls?
How is it that most of posters on your side of the argument can see the nuances in my posts and appreciate that I’m trying to figure out how we can help your people while protecting my people? I am over here trying to come up with solutions that help everyone without anyone having to take anything extra on the chin as far as safety and security goes.
You want to turn my space into a shithole just because you want 1% of the population to have happy feels. You don’t care if a million Jack the Rippers comes up into the locker room and rape 100% of ciswomen every day. As long as you have your gender affirmed, that’s all you selflishly and self-absorbedly care about.
See how it feels, to be portrayed as a vilianous monster? It doesn’t make you want to engage me very much, does it?
I’m trying to find a way to keep the Jack the Rippers out of the room. Status quo seems to be doing that OK, though it isn’t perfect. This is why I don’t want status quo to change any. I want to retain my right to scream if a man comes into the women’s restroom/locker room and NOT have to worry about people like you calling me a TERF. If you have some good ideas for how we retain women’s right to scream while also being compassionate towards people like you, then please share them. But if all you’re gonna do is call me a TERF and tell me I’m a giant big meano, you will only be validating my feeling that women’s right to scream is being taken away from us. We will be vilified for being afraid of men in our spaces and will be vilified for reacting on this fear.
Female human beings have the right to self-define. We have the right to organize as members of an oppressed sex class and advocate for our biological needs.
Thank you for advertising the fact that your movement is against females having these rights. Maybe if more people understand that gender extremism has hijacked the trans rights movement, maybe they will finally understand why it is being associated with misogyny.
Actually, I am glad to are finally being honest about how you really feel. And I think TERFs are a bunch of sexists that seem to want to project their issues with men onto us, even though we are not men.
Any misconception you might have that your views are going to have a resurgence in popularity are unfounded. The general population is becoming more and more accepting of us and i’m not going to apologize for that.