J K Rowling and the trans furore

In My Humble Opinion
3345

Obviously she is talking about the restroom sign on the splash page:

For those who don’t want to click, it reads:

If you’re using this restroom and you don’t think someone’s gender matches the sign on the door, follow these steps:

  1. Don’t worry about it. They know better than you.

What this sign is communicating is that if you go into a women’s restroom and you see an obvious man dressed like an obvious man, then you had better not say a single thing, you foolish woman. Don’t ask that person a damn thing other than “How do you do?” They are just as entitled to be there as you. This goes whether you are 40-years-old or 11-years-old. Fuck you if something bad happens to you. It was your fault for trusting the sign over your own gut.

3346

Still no ideas for how we can keep women’s spaces safe from predators, I see. All you seem to be able to do is clutch your pearls and scream at people. The men here might fall for that theatrical bullshit, but I’m not buying. Sorry.

3347

They already are safe, or at least as “safe” as it ever was, and that’s my point. You have a problem that doesn’t exist in a big enough capacity for me to care.

3348

Gotta love the “they know better than you” line too. If I didn’t know any better, I would think someone was making a satirical statement about the way misogynists hide in plain sight, using gender inclusive wokeness as their way of silencing and shaming women. But this is not satire. This is real life.

3349

And you obviously haven’t lived very long as a woman if you trust society to keep all women as safe “as it ever was” while it simultaneously encourages males to use women’s restroom/locker rooms and simultaneously scolds women for being concerned about this and simultaneously scolds women for trying to do anything to protect themselves, like screaming or calling the cops? I see posts condoning all of this bullshit in this very thread. So forgive me for not having as much trust and faith in the system as you seem to have.

3350

It is to laugh to think woman are safe or as “safe as it ever was”. Am I such a bad person for wanting my people to be just as safe as men are? You want your people to have extra safety, right, @Boudicca90? If we find that your people are victimized just as much or even more once we give males access to women’s spaces, won’t you still be trying to come up with solutions that address this? Or will you throw up your hands and decide it’s as good as we can ever hope?

For the entire history of women, we’ve been non-accepting of the status quo. That’s giving men exactly what they want–freedom to victimize us. Women should always be demanding more. We should never put up with shit just because men are assuring us that things can never get any better. That’s a damn lie.

3351

So to be clear, you ARE in favor of segregation. You clearly have no problem with there being women’s restrooms, so your claim of being opposed to segregation isn’t true. You just want the segregation to be along the lines of your choosing.

3352

I’ve noticed you stopped even using trans women and are now just straight up calling us men (or males, or “your people” - any excuse to other us). I’m done with you, have fun in your dystopian future where you feel a little uncomfortable that you can’t gatekeep anymore.

This is a good example of that “I’m not the racist, you’re the racist!” crap I’ve mentioned. I’m fine with unisex/inclusive bathrooms, but it would be discrimination to force us to use them. What isn’t clear about that? Do you need me to spell it out for you?

3353

Where the fuck did I call you a man?

You are a male. if you weren’t a male, you wouldn’t be identifying as a transwoman. I’m not going to call you a female just because you want me too. I don’t care to indulge your feelings when doing so will impede effective communication. Opening the door to women’s spaces for some males–regardless of how they present–really and truly is opening the doors to men. If you can’t deal with these basic terms being used, then that means you’re only here for a hug box echo chamber. Not to intellectual engage anyone.

I’m laughing at you big time. My second paragraph explicitly affirms your woman identity. I am including you in the “us”. I could have written that sentence in so many different ways, but I didn’t want to. But your pathological insecurity is keeping you from seeing that. You’re only proving my point about how toxic this subject matter is. It’s toxic because we are indulging folks like yourself who are so insecure and in desperate need of validation that they are unable to intellectually engage with anyone who disagrees with them. If a ciswoman speaks about the reality that confronts women in real-talk terms and refuses to intersperse in her language with “YOU GO TRANSWOMAN FEMALE!!!” every so often, then you believe her to be your sworn enemy. And your allies will see your tears and reflexively take your side. They will do this even when I’m not doing a damn thing to you.

It’s not funny at all, mind you, but I still find it hilarious. It’s as hilarious as expecting women to not be afraid of a masculine male but teaching them to be afraid of a masculine man. Whatever they do, they will be a dumb bitch. But you don’t care about this because you believe hearing “YOU GO GIRL” is what women really want. Not safety. Not security. But gender affirmation.

3354

All I want to emerge from this discussion is for someone to think twice about scolding a woman when she expresses doubts about someone’s “womanness”. I’m not talking about a woman who is doing that just to be doing that. If a woman makes that kind of comment in a board meeting, shame the fuck out of her. I’m talking about a woman who points out a suspicious person in a space reserved for women/females. If women can’t count on having that kind of basic concern taken seriously, then we are setting women up for harm. We shouldn’t have to provide proof of this. We should all be able see how it will happen based on what’s deducible from eleventy billions years of human history.

3355

But some of the women calling out trans women as “suspicious” are, in fact, “doing that just to be doing that.” The transphobic woman in a board meeting, whom we are allowed to “shame the fuck out of,” doesn’t become any less transphobic when she’s peeing. Yeah, there’s a lot of history of men sexually assaulting women. There’s also a lot of history of bigots using “protecting women” as a justification for discrimination and violence against vulnerable minorities.

3356

I didn’t say you were a bigot. Segregation and discrimination make sense in some contexts and do not make one a bigot; you would surely not be opposed to saying seven year olds shouldn’t be able to vote, but that’s technically discrimination. A movie producer is surely going to limit their search for someone to play Martin Luther King to Black actors, which is discrimination. Those are legal and reasonable types of discrimination. You ARE in favor of segregation in bathrooms, but on lines of gender identity, instead of sex.

3357

Another statement from JK Rowling:

And she links to a new group of clinicians and researchers concerned about the treatment of children:

Perhaps BB and others here who trust in the affirmation and medicalisation model will be more willing to look at this website?

3358

What I’m hearing you say is that a woman cannot trust others to take her seriously when she says there is a potential intruder in the locker room. No one will know whether she’s a bigot who is “doing that just to be doing that” or she actually sees a dangerous man in the women’s locker room. Without concrete proof in hand, it will be safer for everyone involved (except her) to regard her as a bigot and thus dismiss her concerns or complaints. I know this isn’t what you are saying. But your words are exactly how I would expect woke folks to rationalize why they chose to ignore a female crime victim who was brave enough to call for help before she was victimized. I can’t with that, for obvious reasons.

I’m familiar with how frequently women’s fears and complaints are dismissed because this is what happens in 99% of spaces. If I were to ever experience sexual harassment in my workplace, I know some people will assume I’m a man-hating frigid feminaz if I complained. The fear of being judged like that would keep me from saying anything, because I’m not a cold-stone bad ass bitch. I don’t want to be regarded as a man-hating frigid feminazi. So I wouldn’t say anything until I have concrete proof that harassment happened. I know this is how the world works. I hate it, but I accept it as the cost of being in a female body.

Women’s spaces are supposed to be the only place in our society that don’t work like this. In women’s spaces, women’s complaints and fears are supposed to be always taken seriously. They don’t have to provide concrete proof before people will come to their aid. They can just say, “Look, there’s a dude in here. Get him out!” And dude will be ushered out. She doesn’t have to be raped or groped or spied on first.

If we want to turn women’s spaces into 99% of the world’s spaces, then let’s do that and be transparent about it. But don’t tell me you care about providing women with special protection but also be in support of silencing women when they try to protect their spaces. You (meaning society, not you personally) don’t get to have both of those things. That’s like the abusive husband feeling like he’s a feminist because he gives his wife flowers on Valentine’s Day, when really she doesn’t like flowers. She just wants him to stop beating her and stop telling her to shut up.

I don’t want a place for gender affirmation. That’s like giving me flowers. I want a place to pee, poop, change pads/tampons, undress, and shower without worrying about whether there’s a person with a dick who is much stronger than me and is aggro as fuck about to come into the room. When people tell me this aggro as fuck person with a dick person is entitled to be in that room with me, but I can’t complain about it until they put a visible bruise on my body since complaining beforehand is exactly what TERFS do…can you not see, my friend, how that is really messed up? You’re basically telling me that I should be more afraid of being perceived as a bigot than I should be about getting beaten up, when the cost of me being beaten up is SO MUCH GREATER than the cost of me being perceived as a bigot. There’s a billion-point difference between these things.

I’m insanely “go along to get along”. I probably will choose the stupid option of signaling “wokeness” over self-preservation. I can easily see myself going into a locker room, seeing a man-looking person in there all by themselves, and telling myself not to back out on the off-hand chance I’m wrong about what my gut is telling me. I can see myself making this choice, getting victimized, and then blaming myself for putting “wokeness” above my own personal safety. And I can also see what will happen when I share my story. I will be accused of being a TERF and spreading lies and being transphobic for attributing violence to a transwoman when it was obviously a man.

I just want you or someone else on your side to validate these feelings in the same way you validate the feelings of transwomen. If you can understand how gender affirmation is the substance of humanity, surely you can understand how feeling safe and secure and taken seriously are equally important. I’m not expecting you to change your beliefs about anything. I just want you to acknowlege that there will be a cost if we follow TWAW too blindly or literally. Because the more I hear from you (someone I have always liked) and others that I’m wrong for not seeing rainbows and lollipops in TWAW and that I’m denying trans folks their “humanity” just by talking about what I see, the more certain I am that the rainbows and lollipops won’t be coming any time soon. Just more bullshit for ciswomen to deal with.

3359

I think a lot of your concerns would be addressed if the trans community held the belief that transwomen should only enter these traditionally female-only spaces if they can maximize their feminine traits and minimize their masculine ones. But since the trans community upholds that a transwoman does not have to conform to any standard for femininity and can be as masculine as the most masculine male person, then this is always going to be a problem. A transwoman with a full beard, body hair, masculine haircut, masculine muscles, no makeup, and wearing men’s clothing is going to look exactly like a man. In this case, there’s no way to visually tell the difference between a transwoman and a man, so to be safe a woman will have to assume it’s a man and act appropriately. But if instead transwomen were held to a standard that they should make a reasonable effort to appear feminine, then a transwoman wouldn’t look like a man and women could visually tell the difference.

3360

Signs like the one I linked to don’t certainly help. It’s as if they start with the assumption that women’s spaces exist to affirm female supremacy or something, and progressivism is needed to fight this belief. As if single-sex spaces only exist because women see themselves as princesses who need to be separated from lowly commoners. This is the subtext whenever comparisons to racial segregation are made.

I don’t know if this assumption is the result of ignorance or bias, but regardless, I have lost patience with it. People who should know better are out here acting like women’s fear of men is irrational prejudice akin to the racism of antebellum whites, and it’s insane. In this very thread, I’m watching people suggest lesbians are equally likely to pose a threat as men. I thought we left these lesbophobic arguments back in 1980, but nope. Not only are women bigots if they want to keep single-sex spaces, but lesbian women might as well be men because of their sexual orientation.

We have lost our way as liberals by taking this detour down gender affirmation lane.

3361

I blame the “gender affirmation is a fundamental human right” argument for this. If you think women’s spaces exist as “gender affirming” places rather than “special protection for females” spaces and you think gender affirmation is a fundamental human right, then telling a masculine transwoman they can’t come in is denying them a fundamental right. Which of course is bad. Who wants to deny anyone of a fundamental right?

But if you are like me and believe that women’s spaces are “special protection for females” spaces, then it is perfectly OK to tell some males to leave the room before they ever have a chance to harm anyone. This framework still allows you to let in some males, but you wouldn’t be obligated to open the door to all of them. And a female’s word would continue to have power. If a female sees a male undressing in the common area of a locker room, she wouldn’t be a TERF by asking the front desk to make that person to leave. Because no female should have to pretend that a naked male in a space reserved for women isn’t degrading the protection of that space.

If a transwoman or a trans ally were to say something like, “I totally get what you are saying about masculine males being scary. I think what we should do is discourage masculine transwomen from using women’s restrooms and locker rooms, since it’s no hardship for them to use men’s restrooms and locker rooms”, then I would feel like they really do understand both sides of this issue. Instead of this reasonable thing, though, I’m hearing that masculine transwomen don’t exist (despite me providing evidence) and all I want is to deny transwomen of their humanity and access to public life. When what I really want is for us to preserve the original intent of women’s spaces. It isn’t to affirm gender. It is to keep women safe from men. Telling males that are indistinguishable from men that they can’t come in would be a reasonable alternative to blind acceptance of TWAW.

I appreciate you very much for understanding this issue so well, though. And @RickJay too.

3362

Your use of the word men when referring to transmen is disingenuous.
First - I’m not afraid of being assaulted by anyone. Not lesbians, not transmen, not even biological men. I do not live my life in fear.

If I had to assign my relative risk, I do think I’m more likely to be assaulted by someone that is primarily sexually attracted to females than I am by someone that is primarily sexually attracted to males. Frankly, I’d be more comfortable dressing with gay men than gay women. This does not mean that I recommend setting public policy based on my comfort levels.

Please don’t project your hate on me. The fact that I have been harassed by gay women and had a couple of incidents where gay women touched me non-consensually (If you missed it upthread, once a bisexual woman pulled me to her and stuck her tongue down my throat in the bathroom at a private party and another incident where a woman stroked my bare inner thigh high up (I was wearing short shorts) doesn’t mean I hate or fear gay women or have a problem sharing a restroom or locker room with them.

I also would absolutely call out a male presenting person in a ladies room if they did anything other than walk in, enter a stall, do their business and leave (if that’s all they did I’d probably assume the men’s room was out of order or something). I believe that people should WANT to use the restroom that matches their gender presentation in order to be politely discreet regarding their bodily functions.

If they loitered inside or outside the stall I’d either ask them to leave or report them. I’d report anyone that loitered but my tolerance would be lower if they presented as the opposite gender because I might conclude that they had the intent to alarm people just because they made a choice that calls attention to themselves.

I also think it would be alarming if female presenting people loitered in the men’s room. Especially since men actually expose their genitals outside of the stall.

I just don’t find the imaginary scenarios of some guy perving it up in a crowded ladies room and getting away with it because no one will challenge his gender plausible.

When Jacob Wohl comes forward with one of his rape accusers, I don’t hesitate to shout “This is bullshit, she’s lying” . And I believe in #MeToo and #BelieveWomen. But I’m also pretty good at calling a troll a troll.

3363

You were probably thinking this lead off would be a devastating blow to my senses or something, but the “transmen” malaprop wrecked it.

Who cares whom you’re more or less afraid of? If you think a lesbian is just as likely to hurt you as a straight man, bully for you. But reality is reality. When over 80% of violent offenses and over 95% of sexual offenses are committed by men, trying to convince you that men pose a far greater risk to you than women is like arguing that gravity exists. I have better things to do with my time and energy.

3364

You are assuming that fear of assault is the motivating factor behind my opinions. Fear of assault is not what drives my comfort level or lack thereof. Even during the two times in college when a man walked into the bathroom and peeped on me in the shower, fear of assault never entered my mind. I was annoyed that they had invaded my privacy and got off on see me naked.

In general what makes me uncomfortable is

  1. The idea that someone is getting some sort of sexual satisfaction or enjoyment from seeing me in a state of undress

  2. Other people in the dressing room passing judgement on my naked or near naked body.

I really don’t have a lot of experience with public nakedness post college. I haven’t belonged to a gym in 35 years. None of the yoga and fitness studios I’ve attended had showers or open dressing rooms.

But I did get massages back when I could afford them, and I always used straight male masseuses Because I get really self-conscious about my less than perfect body and I feel straight men are inherently less judgmental- way less- then women or gay men.

I don’t really relate to fear of assault. I’m not saying that this is a good thing, when I was younger I was so fearless it bordered on self-destructive. Ive gotten better via conditioning but it’s not really wired into my psychological make-up.