That would be an example of autogynephilia, no? And it seems quite foreign to my experience as a woman.
Of course it’s wrong.
Hell, it was wrong in the 80s, when this song came out…
I thought a non sequitur was all that ignorant statement merited.
You “most feminine men are gay” post didn’t stand as evidence for that…
Well, thanks for your evidence free reply. Really helped change my mind!
Yes, and?
Well, it would be, as you don’t have a penis. Are you contending that whether one relates to one 16 yo’s confused recounting of their experience is the only way to judge this? How about you just read Moser’s paper and see if it applies or not.
I’m sorry, did it say Great Debates on the tin? I’m not here to change minds that are so clearly already made up. I’m here to state my own opinions.
Tells me how likely it is you’re living in a socially liberal or conservative area, with regards to what you might experience from people you encounter. I thought I was asking directly, when I said “where”, and especially when I said “Because obviously your mileage will be location-dependent.”, given the obvious context of the question…
@AHunter3, you’re probably better qualified to answer this. Would it be reasonable for me to suspect a man with feminine hairstyle, clothes and mannerisms is gay, based on probability, or would that be way off base?
I’m also Canadian. And there is considerable additional “mileage” beyond that. So it would be a stretch to think of me as provincial.
You’re not the issue, it’s the youths’ background that’s relevant.
I don’t think this is necessarily true, though. Imagine me saying:
A straight woman who is attracted to men is naturally going to be interested in unconscious attitudes of gay men.
Wouldn’t you challenge this assertion? When I was single and looking, I was only concerned with attracting men I knew were attracted to females. Gay men (and whatever biases they have against women) were completely and totally uninteresting to me.
You may think this isn’t a fair comparison but I see otherwise. It starts with understanding and respecting the parameters of same-sex attraction. If a straight woman gets that a gay man doesn’t want what she’s selling—no matter how boyish she carries herself—then so too can a transwoman get this about lesbians. When they don’t get it, this means they either don’t understand the rules of same-sex attraction or they don’t respect those rules because they impede sexual access.
And yes, my feeling is that this disrespect should not be indulged by dissecting and scrutinizing same-sex attracted women as if it’s wrong for them to not see penises (or not-penises) as suitable in their bedrooms.
I think a more interesting question is what is the difference between “unconscious bias” and a justified preference. Tell me what to label the following (assume these opinions were elicited from lesbians):
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I’m attracted to females and I haven’t yet met a transwoman who pings me as female. And I know a lot of transwomen.
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I believe transwomen are women but as much as I love giving oral sex, I don’t think I’d be compatible with someone lacking female genitalia. I’m a fan of homegrown vag.
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Intimacy for me means never having to explain certain things, like the experience of growing up as a girl attracted to other girls and being shamed for that. This is an experience most transwomen lack because they were socialized as heterosexual males—the polar opposite of the lived lesbian experience.
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I’ve encountered transwomen that physically pass as female, but it’s only because they have had extensive surgeries. Cosmetic surgery is a turn off to me; it’s a deal breaker regardless of if I’m dealing with a cis or transwoman. Unfortunately, transwomen who haven’t had surgery don’t pass as women to me. Cis women don’t have this problem.
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I like to stick with the tried and true. Women do it for me and I know this from experience; transwomen are a big unknown. I have no desire to experiment at this point of my life.
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I don’t believe transwomen are women. Gender ideology goes against my belief system. I see transwomen as males who identify as women. I have zero animosity towards males as a group, but the prospect of sleeping with one is unappealing. I know this after a lifetime of trying to feel differently. Attempts to change my mind about this feels like the same kind of rapey gaslighting BS I grew up with and ain’t nobody got time for this.
I get the sense that the view in the last bullet would be considered “unconscious bias” of the unacceptable sort. But I don’t think it is an unacceptable viewpoint. I see it as justified and non-transphobic.
I never assume any person is gay unless they tell me they are. Even if someone is apparently male and makes a pass at me, they could be bi for all I know. I have been regarded as having feminine presentation of various sorts and assumed to be gay, which, while not intrinsically insulting or derogatory or anything, is factually incorrect and — like misgendering people — is an uncomfortable thing, being perceived as other than who you actually are.
I also figured I don’t need to know. If the person is male, I couldn’t care less who they prefer to bonk. If female, I don’t initiate things in this social environment as a general rule, hence if I can’t tell she’s into people of my morphology it’s not my responsibility to find out.
Reviewing evidence outside of your own lived experience is rather an important part of learning.
I think we are two people divided by a common tongue.
Do you think that your youth population sample is somehow more representative of the larger population than mine?
Err, ummm, I’ve actually only had sex with my husband. But I’m not especially aroused by “dick”. Perhaps I’m bisexual. My crushes on women haven’t felt different to me than crushes on men. But they have all been directed at women who display masculine personality traits. In fact, one of those “women” is now a transman. But he didn’t know it at the time, he then identified as a lesbian.
I do, too. (Although i know more transmen then transwomen.) And i know only one transwoman who really pings me as physically female. And she transitioned fairly young. She certainly grew her own breasts. (And i have no idea what bits she has under her pants. She’s more a friendly acquaintance, than a close friend.)
I review it. I have said so, multiple times.
I don’t privilege it.
I don’t know, but I have no real reason to think not, given what I see globally.
Telling finding:
The only age group to post a decline this year was young Americans ages 18-34. The number of non-LGBTQ U.S. adults ages 18-34 who reported being ‘very’ or ‘somewhat’ comfortable across all seven situations dropped from 53% to 45%. This reflects a continued erosion in comfort among this age group over the past two years. This year, the significant erosion is being driven by females ages 18-34, where comfort levels fell from 64% last year to 52% this year.
Among younger cohorts, there is declining support for LGBT. This is what GLAAD said about it:
“We typically see in our surveys that younger Americans can be counted on to advocate for issues like gender equality, immigration and climate change,” said John Gerzema, CEO of The Harris Poll. “So it is surprising to see a notable erosion of acceptance for the LGBTQ community, which counters many of the assumptions we make about their values and beliefs. In this toxic age, tolerance––even among youth––now seems to be parsed out. Nothing today should be taken for granted.”
Since @MrDibble refuses to read anything that I post (hi @MrDibble!) hopefully someone will kindly point out these facts to him so he doesn’t continue to believe there’s no good reason to re-examine his assumptions.
Read it already, and I don’t think it’s the same thing. I’m mainly interested what the other women reading this thread think of accounts like these:
You have any specific parts of the questionnaire or the gathered responses to it you want to highlight as being particularly wrong?
What?? Why do you think that calling people “hun” is a transsexual cultural idiosyncrasy?
I do that, and so do lots of older women I know, it’s a shortening of “honey”( not an erudite reverence to Atilla) I also use “sweetie“ sometimes and I’ve know people that use “sugar”. It’s a vestige of my Southern upbringing.
I see that one as more of a Southern cultural thing than anything else. It’s VERY commonly used when talking to children. Adult to adult, it’s usually used by women and usually in reference to someone younger than they are, which I why I hear it more from older women. It can also sometimes carry a undertone of condescension, indicated by tone - which is why Southern women love to use it, bless their hearts.
But it’s a trans-cultural thing because the one trans person you know used to use the term? I disagree.
(Yes, I checked google and I found a reference to “hun” being used to describe a late-transitioning transwomen.) But unless your workplace is way different that I imagine I don’t think your trans coworker was using the term in that way. I imagine she was using it in the same way women everywhere, or at least everywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line, uses it.