First, males are subject to the same vagaries of body development. A promising gymnast may grow too tall, or a promising basketball player not tall enough.
Second, there are plenty of women with tiny breasts – like, every elite female gymnast. Keeping out the boys doesn’t do anything to help the girl who grows DD cups. She’s screwed, because elite athletics are not fair.
From the stories of detransitioners I’ve read, losing their breasts means their already poor self-image becomes even worse, once they realize that transitioning isn’t the solution they need.
Mastectomies result in permanently scarred chests. It’s not like you can walk around topless without everyone and their mama knowing you once had breasts…at least not until you grow a very thick carpet on your chest (and even then, I don’t then it is going to be easy to hide). I gotta think if you’re the least bit body dysmorphic, a scarred anything might throw you in an emotional tailspin.
I’m also curious if the elevated rate of desisting females is due to the fact that so many report transitioning due to their own lesbophobia. They thought that being men would be socially easier than being butch lesbians. But I gotta think lopping off your breasts when you are a lesbian is similar to lopping off your breasts when you’re a straight women. You’re not removing inert, neutral organs. You’re removing sexual organs–things that make you attractive to others and are likely involved in your own enjoyment of sex.
Keeping out the boys helps all girls, so it is indisputable that it helps girls with DD cups too.
No, because once you fall out of the elite category, it doesn’t really matter who is in it. She’s out. (Unless her parents relent and let her chop off her breasts.)
Keeping out the boys may help the girls who still have the right body. On the other hand, girl’s gymnastics is optimized for girls’ bodies, and I’m not sure boys WOULD dominate. It would only be very short boys, at any rate.
AFAIK, there aren’t males trying to compete against female gymnasts. But in other arenas there are. An elite female with DD breasts might have a shot in track and field, as long as she’s competing against other females. An elite female with DD breasts competing against an elite male? She has no chance. It is silly to wave this away by saying something like “Oh, well, men with short legs don’t have a chance either!” A man with short legs can turn on the TV and watch a million sports events featuring men. A man with short legs who is renaissance enough will be able find a sport he can at a competitive level. Women are disadvantaged on both of these fronts. Allowing males to compete against them just deepens this disadvantage.
There you go again with the ‘sports isn’t fair’ argument. It has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with skill and suitability. Have you ever been a competitive athlete, even amateur level?
I was a competitive downhill skier in college. I was on skis since I was 5 or 6 years old. On any given day, on any given mountain, I was among the top 1-2% of skiers. My family could never afford a coach for me and I would never think to ask them to make the sacrifice. I just loved skiing and I my best every time I was on snow. I came “naturally” to me. When I joined the team in college I was so unbelievably average that is shocked me. In any given race I was a solid middle of the pack finisher. And this wasn’t even a national competition level. I skied against some junior national team members a few times. The difference was night and day for a variety of reasons which had nothing to do with my physical size or fitness, and everything to do with years of coaching and competitive experience. But never, not once, did I ever think that them being better than me was unfair. And actual cheating aside, I don’t believe that any elite or accomplished amateur athlete feels that way either.
Right. Transmen who have removed their breasts will be making it harder to attract interest from lesbians (if they are same-sex attracted) and men (if they are opposite-sex attracted). This may not seem like a big deal to a teenager whose sense of the future goes no farther than the end of the school year, but in your 20’s and 30’s, successful relationships start to matter a lot. I imagine this is when the regrets start to set in.
ETA: I think ‘fairness’ does come into play when talking about men vs women in athletics. But I’m assuming that’s a given in this context.
Fair enough. In general I don’t think 13 is old enough to make that kind of decision, and specifically in this case I’m concerned a lot of the kids currently presenting with dysphoria are suffering other problems rather than truly being transgender and are likely to change their minds in future.
It really bothers me that they are being seen as purely a cosmetic feature, when they do have functions, sexual and for breastfeeding. The idea you should be able to mould your appearance like some kind of avatar in a computer game seems like a really unhealthy one to me. We each only get one body and I think you should try and respect it.
I agree with you on that. And it’s a much larger issue than just trans people. We do a lot of cosmetic surgery, as a nation, and I think a lot of it is unhealthy.
And yeah, one of the more common problems with mastectomy and breast reduction surgery in general is the risk of losing sensation to the nipples, which… isn’t the end of the world, but it seems like a big hit in sexual function. (Not to mention that there’s a lot to be said for nursing, should you ever have children.)
I certainly wouldn’t give permission for MY 13 year old to have cosmetic breast surgery, larger, smaller, or removed. I don’t think they are old enough or experienced enough to understand what they’d be giving up.
It’s clear you think this is all sensible and logical, but it’s not. I was more than happy to move past this argument and let it go undebated. So why test my patience by invoking it again? Lol.
The elite category doesn’t spring out of the ether. It’s merely the top of a long ladder. Forcing girls to compete against boys at any rung of the ladder means fewer girls will make it to the elite. Irrespective of their cup size.
Non-elite competitions matter just as much as elite, so acting like it’s okay for males to displace girls at the bottom rung but not the higher is, in a word, bananas. The gymnast with DD cups might have a hard time making it to the Olympics but she may be competitive enough at the junior varsity level to win tournaments. That’s nothing to sneeze at it, especially if these wins give her self-esteem and pride that a lot of other girls (like the ones getting mastectomies and breast implants) don’t have.
This is an argument against unisex sports, which I have not argued for. (I’m team unisex for restrooms, not for high school sports, if that wasn’t clear.) It’s not an argument against letting a transgirl play on the girl’s team at lower levels. How many transgirl athletes do you think the typical school HAS that they are going to completely displace the cis girls in sports?
In the response you made to @monstro below, it seems like you are drawing an unwarranted distinction in the “fairness” of competing girls against boys in non-elite levels.
Second, there are plenty of women with tiny breasts – like, every elite female gymnast. Keeping out the boys doesn’t do anything to help the girl who grows DD cups. She’s screwed, because elite athletics are not fair.
If you are not making the statement I think you are, then I have no idea what your point is and I hope you will clarify it.
So you asking this further suggests you don’t consider it unfair to compete high school girls against trans girls. It you think it doesn’t become unfair until all girls are displaced from the team, your threshold is ridiculously high.
Even if a school only has one transgirl on the women’s team, it puts all the period-experiencing, breast-having, non-testicle-carrying female athletes playing against her at a disadvantage. Also it means one less girl will be on the team because a male is taking that spot. This alone is enough to make it unfair.
If it’s a club sport, no, it just means there is one more girl on the team. I suppose everyone gets to play slightly less, but this seems the same if there just happened to be one more girl who wanted to play.
I just don’t think there’s any fairness in how sports ability (or math ability, or language ability, or beauty, or wealth, or…) gets divied up at birth. Letting a trans girl play doesn’t seem to me to be significantly shifting that already unlevel playing field.
It’s funny, because you deny arguing for unisex sports in high school but that’s clearly what you’re doing even if you don’t know it. Why is letting boys play in girl sports any different? Sports aren’t fair so why should girls be protected from competing against boys any more than protecting them from playing against transgirls?
That’s not how it works in competitve high school sports. There are try-outs and you don’t get on the team if you down make the cut. Not every person who wants to play is able to play.
You’d understand the significance if you were a girl whose only hope of attending college is through an athletic scholarship.
That seems bonkers. In what way is it not completely shifting the playing field? Biological males now being able to compete directly against biological females?
I was a schoolboy athlete, competing at all levels and all age groups and I took it seriously. I didn’t like losing but could live with it if it were a fair competition. I can only imagine how bad I would feel if I lost because the winner was given an entry from a higher age category.
Try that “not significant” trick with my 14 year-old self if you fancy it.
It seems to me that sports, to the extent possible, tries to level the playing field. Something that is hard enough to do without introducing new variables which cannot be controlled for.
It matters to the girl who has been training hard to achieve her position on the team. For example, here are some times from a summer swim meet in the 50 yard fly event for 15 and older kids:
| Place | Boy | Girl |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 24.44 | 29.53 |
| 2 | 25.99 | 29.62 |
| 3 | 26.47 | 31.79 |
| 4 | 28.78 | 32.15 |
Compared to the fastest girl, the fastest boy is 5 seconds faster and slowest boy is about a second faster than the fastest girl. A girl may need to train hard for 2 years to cut a second off of her time. So if any of those boys competed on the girls team, none of those girls would win. None of those girls would swim in the A relay for that event since the coach needs the fastest swimmer, which would be the boy. Those girls might not get to go to the regional meets because the boy would have a better time. A biological boy swimming in the girls event would come in first without even trying. The #1 girl may be getting up at 5:30 and doing two workouts a day to achieve her time, but a boy could just cruise to first place without really trying.
While it’s true that a faster girl could always join the team, that girl would likely be within the same range as the other girls. It wouldn’t make sense for a girl that’s 5 seconds faster to join this team. She’d be olympic quality and would likely not be competing at this level.
And even if you don’t care about equality in sports, this inequality is sure to cause a lot of conflict for trans rights. I guarantee you that every parent of a daughter in the stands is going to be upset watching a biological boy finish 1/2 a lap ahead of the girls, getting first place, going to state, getting scholarships, etc. If the competition doesn’t seem fair, trans kids are going to get locked out of sports.
I think puzzlegal is making the same assumption that lots of people make. It’s only going to be one transgirl trying to get on any particular girls’ team. So why the fuss?
Folks need to keep in mind that there’s no law that states it has to be one. Gender ideology is completely neutral on a huge surge of males identifying as women. We’re not even supposed to find such a thing alarming or suspicious. It is easy to make an exception for one transgirl on the basis that she’s unlikely to keep any cisgirl from getting a sports scholarship. Maybe that transgirl barely qualifies for the the junior varsity team, so it really isn’t a big deal to let her play. But what do you do when you’ve got three transgirls trying out for the team and they’re all better than the best ten female players? Do you pick one and say to the others, “Sorry, girls, but we’ve maxed out on our transgirl quota for this year”? Of course it won’t happen like that. If you take one transgirl, you’ll have to take all who qualify. Which translates into even fewer opportunities for females and even more for males.
The prevalence of the trans athlete today tells us nothing about their prevalence in the future. You can make robust forecasts for other minority groups, but not gender minorities.