…what Stonewall is campaigning for is much more nuanced than a single, vulgar sentence. What people in very thread are arguing for is much more nuanced than what you have written here.
…my use of the word “compassion” in this thread was used in a very specific context. That someone tried to hijack that context with a disingenuous “hot take” doesn’t mean I had to reciprocate that context in my reply.
Because the rhetoric and the arguments you put forward in this thread have real life consequences. This isn’t theoretical. This isn’t a thought experiment. If we aren’t guided by compassion, then what are we even doing?
And you see, I just don’t get the point of “gotcha posts” like this. This is just sad.
That does seem to be his argument. I’m also sick of emotional blackmail tactics as a means for shutting down the discussion.
From Stonewall’s webpage that I cited earlier:
Should trans women be able to sit on women-only panels or be on women-only shortlists?
Yes, of course. Trans women are women, and because of that it makes sense that they should have the same opportunity to be involved in debates as any other woman. Women-only panels and shortlists exist to try and redress the gender inequality that all women – trans women included - face every day.
Panels and shortlists are stronger when they recognise and represent a wide range of women’s experiences and backgrounds, including trans women, who have very little visible representation in positions of power.
If males are taking spots reserved for women to address female underrepresentation, this further marginalizes women from power. For every trans woman on the shortlist, there is one less voice in the room speaking from the perspective of someone with a female reproductive system and all that comes with that, including firsthand experience of how socialization affects female self-esteem and access to opportunity from a young age.
Since there is no requirement that a trans woman presents in a way that would cause them to be coded by female by society, we shouldn’t be acting like a woman gender identity imparts a “woman’s experience and background”. But that’s the idea that Stonewall has to foist on us to maintain the idea that trans women deserve what women get.
Well, yeah. It’s a real life experiment with people’s, and especially children’s, lives. That’s why it’s so alarming. We started with J K Rowling, and her letter does show compassion for trans people. But having compassion doesn’t mean you can’t make mistakes, that’s why we need reason as well as compassion.
Letting men identify their way into women’s spaces also has consequences for women. This isn’t theoretical. This isn’t a thought experiment. If we aren’t guided by compassion, then what are we even doing?
I mean, seriously. Are you even reading yourself? Everything you are saying about trans women could be flipped around for women.
Are these meant to be the same people, here? Just curious if you actually think there’s a significant overlap between people who vigorously support trans rights, and people who think sexual assault victims were “asking for it.”
It’s weird (and possibly telling) that these conversations almost always end up being cis men discussing trans women while generally ignoring trans men entirely. Suddenly armchair feminists come out of the woodwork when the subject is trans women.
This is exactly the opposite of how these discourses generally go, and how this one has gone in particular.
Almost every major controversy about transgendered people focuses on the hypothetical “dangers” trans women pose to cis women! These things always devolve to something that’s just a few ticks away from the bathroom bill debate.
Treat trans people like people and work out the details on a case by case basis, IMHO. The hypotheticals posed (based on no data) really only serve to discriminate.
For the elentybillionth time, it’s not trans women that represent the concern, per se. It’s male predators taking advantage of trans-supportive accommodations.
The wider you open up any window, the easier it becomes for pretty butterflies to fly in. Yay! But it also becomes easier for pests to come in too. Rather than acknowledging this very simple principle of cause and effect, we are seeing a huge amount of denial. Why shouldn’t women be bothered by this? Its not like there’s a shortage of pests plaguing our lives.
This is like saying gay people shouldn’t marry because two men might abuse it for tax purposes - it’s incredibly rare (if it’s even happened) and holding back people because of a hypothetical harm actively harms the people who just want to coexist.
Which women’s spaces have been invaded by men pretending to be trans to gain an advantage? It’s crazy that anyone thinks being trans could possibly be a net gain. It’s a life of constant discrimination. Men already have the advantage, they don’t need to pretend to be trans for that.
No, it’s not like saying that at all. We have no evidence that gay couples are more likely than straight couples to abuse the tax system.
But we have tons of evidence that males are much more likely than females to sexually assault and violently attack female people. This thread is riddled with this evidence.
The more that women see the lengths people are willing to take to deny the reality we’re living in, the less support there will be for the trans movement. It’s not even denying biology at this point. We’re talking about denying stuff as fundamental 1 + 1 = 2.
No, they aren’t the same people. And? My point is that it doesn’t matter what women do. There will always be a chorus of somebodies yelling at them, telling them they are wrong.
how much evidence do you have of trans women attacking women? or even men masquerading as women to attack women?
if this were such an obvious method of attack why is it exceedingly rare compared to all other forms of assault?
Barkodogo, it’s not really helpful to make the same arguments again that have already been made upthread. It’s only going to serve to frustrate the patience of people like monstro and YWTF.
I’m willing to concede that there’s a conflict between women’s right to safety and transwomen’s right to participate in society as women.
What I haven’t seen is a proposal for how to determine when a transwoman is “woman enough” to be treated as same. Well, short of the demand for gender confirmation surgery which is completely unworkable (at the moment) for a number of reasons.
Those of us expressing concern for trans individuals aren’t as worried about the hypothetical transwoman sexual predator as we are about the non-violent or perhaps wrongfully convicted trans individuals who may be affected by a blanket decision intended to keep the predators away from women.
I’m ready to acknowledge there’s no good solution for the predator. But what’s the alternative solution for the non-predator?
Powers &8^]
…but men wouldn’t be taking spots reserved for women here. Because transwomen are women.
Did you not read the Stonewall position? They literally state that in the second sentence of its answer. I know you disagree with this. But its a fundamental difference in paradigm. You’ve just countered “transwomen are women” with “transwomen are not women.” Well we all knew that you thought that. But its just an opinion, merely an assertion, nothing more.
For every transwomen in the room there is one more person who has first hand experience of how socialization affects womens self-esteem to access fo opportunity to transwomen from many different ages.
This isn’t a competition. Nobody wins at the oppression olympics.
There’s been several suggested already, including third spaces, providing more privacy, and a degree of gatekeeping depending on the circumstances.
Something I haven’t seen suggested is that we could work on getting men to accept seeing transwomen in their changing rooms, instead of trying to persuade women to accept seeing penises in theirs.
…it isn’t an experiment. And if you are “worried about the children” then you should support organizations like Mermaids UK, who are simply an amazing organization that saves lives.
The amount of trans people who have been upset by the Rowling letter, and the complete disinterest expressed by Rowling to listen to those very same people make it obvious that your version of compassion and what trans people consider compassionate are two very different things. Compassion starts with listening. And Rowling shows no desire to do that at all.
…we aren’t talking about letting men identify their way into womens spaces. Because transwomen are women. A man pretending to be a transwomen is a completely different thing. Is that the issue you actually want to address?
Um, of course? Because transwomen are women?