Transwoman: “I don’t want to shower in the men’s locker room. That’s not a place where I feel comfortable. I am a woman. I am a female. So I want to shower with other women and females. I don’t feel comfortable in the presence of men when I’m in various stages of nakedness. So please let me use the women’s room so that I can be assured of my safety and have my gender identity validated.”
Ciswoman: “I don’t want males to come into the women’s room because I don’t believe all of them will be transwomen. I don’t want the women’s locker room to be so overrun with males that it ceases to be a women’s locker room. I don’t want the women’s locker room to turn into the men’s locker room since I don’t feel comfortable in the presence of men when I’m in various stages of nakedness. And y’all aren’t providing enough assurances that only transwomen will be the only males who will be coming up in here. You are telling me it doesn’t matter, and I’m telling you that it does. It matters to most individuals of my gender class.”
Tell me why I, as a ciswoman, should validate the first woman’s feelings while being dismissive of the ciswoman’s feelings? Explain how this doing this is feminism.
And it’s not just showering. It’s being housed with males in institutional settings. It’s being denied access to female-only rape counseling. It’s being unable to organize as a sex class to advocate for issues exclusive to our sex class, without having to accommodate members of the opposite sex class. It’s so much more than showers and toilets.
She’s asking me to justify why I wouldn’t want to shower with a rando male and did so in a way that suggests she thinks this is unreasonable. I believe it was Ann_Hedonia who repeatedly used “hysterical” when talking about the fears women have of males in intimate spaces. So yeah, she’s pinging as “cool chick” in this conversation. I like Ann_Hedonia as much as I like you, but I’m going to call out toxic shit when I see it.
The only innocent explanation I can come up with for her question is that she thinks I meant a private shower. Yeah, if a rando woman stepped into a private shower with me I’d be incredibly pissed off. But I wasn’t talking about a private shower. I was talking about a communal shower in a women’s locker room. If a rando male steps into that space with me, then it should be 100% understandable why I and plenty of other women will have certain feelings about it. I probably won’t be able to hide said feelings from my face. As long as transwomen and their allies understand why this is and don’t take personal offense over it, then I can deal with this brand new world of anyone being women. But if we can’t even have any negative feelings over it, then this brand new world ain’t happening. There won’t be enough political will to make it happen.
Well, if the issue is that you don’t want to normalize the presence of male-presenting people in female-designated spaces, I’m afraid you’re going to be stuck with some degree of normalization no matter how you make the rules.
Because if you decree that people have to use the gender-designated spaces corresponding to their birth gender rather than to their personal gender identity, then sure, you won’t have any big burly bearded people with penises in the women’s locker room. But you will have big burly bearded people with vaginas—i.e., many transgender men—in the women’s locker room. So either way, the prospect of seeing a big burly bearded male-presenting person in the women’s locker room is going to be somewhat more normalized.
In short, if you say that big burly bearded Bob can’t use the women’s locker room because although she identifies as female she presents as conventionally male and has a penis, then you’ve got to put up with big burly bearded Bill (born Betty) in the women’s locker room, even though he both presents as conventionally male and identifies as male.
Sure, one significant difference is that Bob has a penis and Bill (born Betty) doesn’t, but that may not be immediately apparent; and I personally am not going to be peering into either Bob’s or Bill’s big hairy bush to see if I can spot the dong.
Moreover, as we’ve agreed, ordinary good manners require me to acknowledge Bill’s male identity in conversation by using the appropriate male words, and to acknowledge Bob’s female identity in conversationby using the appropriate female words. And I think that calling Bill a “man” in the women’s locker room is going to do more to normalize the presence of male-presenting people there than calling Bob a “woman”.
? Like I said, if that’s what Ann’s suggesting, then she has openly admitted to being even more “unreasonable” than you are, because she wouldn’t even be comfortable showering with a rando female.
Unless you’re interpreting Ann as claiming that it’s reasonable for women to feel uncomfortable about showering with strange women but not reasonable for women to feel uncomfortable about showering with strange men. To which all I could say is, um, I think that would be a very strange and indefensible claim, and that’s not how I interpreted her statements.
All I’m saying is that I don’t want to shower with ANYONE (except maybe my intimate partner when I’m at home). I would be highly uncomfortable showering with a naked man but I’d also be highly uncomfortable showering with a naked woman.
Lucky for me, I literally never encounter situations where I have to shower naked with strangers, male or female. Every locker room I’ve ever been in has private shower stalls. I haven’t seen a “gang shower” since I was in high school in 1972 and even then we had the option of private showers.
I’m not trying to say that you should be comfortable showering with male-bodied strangers. I’m saying I think it is ridiculously easy to avoid getting naked in the shower with any stranger, male or female. And if someone has a different experience, as unfathomable as it seems to me, I think the solution lies in mandating more privacy in general in such facilities.
Multiple people have told you that communal showers are not unusual. For some people, like the women at this homeless shelter in the story below, it isn’t “ridiculously easy”.
There are some contexts where communal sex-segregated nakedness is the norm. This may not be your experience, but it is the experience of others. And sometimes there are private shower stalls but there’s a communal changing area (usually where the lockers are). Many women may not mind changing out in the communal area because they feel secure knowing the people in their company are actually women. This will almost certainly change if penises become more commonplace in women’s locker rooms. Women will not always have that sense of security they used to have if naked men are allowed to be in their spaces unchallenged. That loss sense of security isn’t trivial. It’s real. And I just want folks to respect and appreciate that when they press the “anyone who says they are a woman” message. Not all harm is bloody and makes the six o’clock news. Some of it is purely psychological.
I don’t think penises in women’s spaces will be commonplace. But if they do, the gender ideologues won’t be bothered by it. The folks who scream TERF won’t be bothered by it. I will be bothered by it, though. I will be bothered by it not because I’m afraid of men attacking me in the locker room, but because I won’t believe that all those people with penises are actually women and it will all seem like a farce. I think once penises become a common feature in women’s spaces, it is about time to dismantle those spaces and just call them unisex. A unisex space doesn’t bother me at all. But acting like a unisex space is a women’s space does bother me.
Sorry for losing my temper with you, btw. My real world is affecting my internet persona right now.
It’s the either or thinking in this thread that’s driving me nuts.
No it’s not a given that we would see “big bearded people with vaginas” in the women’s locker room. If we created 3rd spaces for trans folks and anyone else who is indifferent to opposite sex genitalia, the women’s room could continue to be reserved only for members of the female sex class.
And if 3rd spaces are logistically infeasible, why aren’t we making the men’s rooms the space where anyone can go, while leaving the women’s space reserved for female bodied people? It is unfair to make the most vulnerable population lose access to a space that gives them the most protection from predators.
The attitude that women just have to suck it up and go with the program is killing me. After all these years of talking about bodily autonomy and “no means no”, suddenly none of that matters. It’s either shaddup and go with the flow, or let ourselves be driven away from our own spaces (like the daughter in my hypothetical). This is the opposite of female empowerment.
Won’t it also change if brawny male-presenting bodies, beards, bald heads, etc., on transgender men, who identify as men and use male pronouns, become more commonplace in women’s locker rooms? Are women in those environments automatically going to feel comfortable around those transgender men simply because they don’t have penises? (And what about transgender men who’ve had phalloplasties so they do have penises?)
But ISTM that either male-presenting, female-identifying Bob or male-presenting, male-identifying Bill (born Betty) has to be acknowledged as having the right to “be in our spaces” while looking in many respects like a “naked man”.
Neither do I. But I think that requiring Bill (born Betty) to use the women’s spaces while requiring Bob to use the men’s spaces will actually do more to normalize the presence of male-presenting (and even male-identifying) people in women’s spaces than just letting Bill and Bob use the spaces they prefer.
Again, without impugning the good faith or common sense of anybody participating in this particular discussion, I think there are some inconsistent mindsets operating in the movement of “gender critical” ideologues that are influencing some of the standard rhetoric. And one of them seems to be along the lines of “The transgender men will stay in the men’s spaces because that’s where they want to be, and we’ll keep the transgender women out of the women’s spaces because we don’t want them there, and then there will be no male-presenting people at all in women’s spaces to facilitate incursions by male predators, and everything will be fine.”
Of course (even leaving aside the contentious issue of whether the occasional presence of a male-presenting person in a women’s space really does significantly facilitate incursions by male predators), you can’t actually implement that mindset in the form of official rules without making a complete dog’s dinner of the equity and fairness issues. You can keep either Bob or Bill (born Betty) out of the women’s spaces, but you can’t exclude them both. (ETA: Unless you’re relegating all transgender people to the “3rd spaces” suggested by YWTF.)
Do transgender men have to use those “3rd spaces” too, instead of the men’s room? Because if not, then you’re running up against those equality issues again.
Let me remind everyone that the “pro-penis in the female shower” views expressed in this thread are pretty fringey, if the U.K. is any indication. So the idea women need just shut up and get used to this has no basis in reality. It has not been decreed from on high that we have to do jack shit, let alone let it go. All it would take is one politician to hold a referendum on this issue to codify sex-segregation policies most people assume are already being enforced. If more people realized the truth of what was happening, the public would be up in arms about it.
Of note, at least a plurality of all groups polled, regardless of age and political leaning, is against including trans women in women sports. Yet increasingly we’re seeing stories like the one below. How can it be that so much of the public is against this, but no one has successfully stopped it?
Who in this thread is saying that “women need just shut up and get used to” the prospect of showering with random people with penises?
AFAICT, the often-repeated consensus is that it’s perfectly okay for different people to have different personal comfort levels about whom they’re willing to shower with, and that feelings of personal discomfort about showering with (or just being naked with) other individuals should be respected.
Trans men aren’t clamoring to use women’s facilities. Anything that reminds them of their femaleness apparently is denigrating and triggering, remember?
But they wouldn’t have to use a 3rd space if they could overcome their dysphoria long enough to undress with women. If that means women would have to occasionally deal with some bearded people, oh well, but at least it’s not just any bearded penis-having person that has a hankering to identify as a woman that day.
No, they’re clamoring to use men’s facilities. IANA civil-liberties lawyer, but it sounds pretty doubtful to me that one could make any successful case that transgender women should be banned from female-designated spaces while transgender men are allowed to use male-designated spaces.
Okay, so transgender men should have the choice between using a 3rd space and using the women’s facilities, just as transgender women should have the choice between using a 3rd space and using the men’s facilities? That seems less discriminatory than letting transgender men use their preferred-gender facilities while transgender women can’t, at least.
However, I’m not really seeing how forcing cisgender women to share female-designated spaces with male-identifying transgender men is necessarily going to make them feel less vulnerable. And as I said, if the idea is to avoid normalizing the presence of male-appearing people in female-designated spaces, then requiring male-appearing transgender men to use female-designated spaces (unless there’s a 3rd space available) seems absolutely counterproductive.
IOW, “women just have to suck it up and go with the program”?
When a bearded male-appearing person walks into the women’s locker room, how do you tell whether they’re a transgender man complying with the rule about using the facilities corresponding to their birth sex, or “just any bearded penis-having person that has a hankering to identify as a woman that day”?
ISTM that every one of the objections to allowing female-identified, male-presenting Bob to use the women’s facilities also applies to requiring male-identified, male-presenting Bill (born Betty) to use the women’s facilities, and then some. At least until you reach the point of being able to tell which one of them has a penis, by which time a whole lot of substantial discomfort and feelings of insecurity may already have occurred. (And if Bill (born Betty) has had a phalloplasty or wears a penile prosthesis, then Bob and Bill will be even more difficult to tell apart.)
I have not heard this “often-repeated consensus”. Not here at least.
I have heard suggestions that caring about my personal safety means that I don’t care about transwomen’s safety.
I have heard suggestions that women’s feelings are hysterical and not evidence-based and that they need to stop being old-school robots.
But I have not heard anyone on the Kimstu side of the discussion say that women’s discomfort over showering with males should be respected. I’m glad she’s saying this now, but I don’t think enough people in this thread have said this for it to be described as an “oft-repeated consensus”.
And testosterone does not magically turn women into men. They don’t grow taller, they’re likely to be overweight, few will have a full beard and they don’t grow muscles without seriously training. And those who have had a phalloplasty will not have a working penis that looks just like a man’s.
But that doesn’t prevent a large percentage of transgender men from looking sufficiently “man-like” to be perceived as men by, say, a random woman in a women’s room. (And I don’t think suggesting to such a woman that she can check the stranger’s genitals more closely to determine whether it’s a phalloplasty or a “working penis” will really help the situation.)
I’m not suggesting at all that women should start asking to see people’s genitals.
But if Bill (born Betty) has had phalloplasty and is naked in a locker room, a quick glance will.suffice. Most transmen don’t get phalloplasties anyway. The success rate isn’t good.
The more you come back to saying this, the more it looks like a canard to make what I’m proposing look crazy and infeasible, when really its the most practical and fair option for everyone.
If we both agree that transmen aren’t itching to be in the women’s room, then by extension, we’re talking about very few instances in which women would encounter a person who is female but presents as a man. Thus, if it’s only going to be a rare event, the normalization you’re talking about will not occur. Women will be able to expect that the only people in the room when they are naked are people born female.
I have to laugh at the idea that women are somehow unaccustomed to seeing masculine looking people in the locker room anyway. Women are a diverse bunch; the butch aesthetic has bee a thing for decades. It’s never been a big deal because a woman is a woman is a woman.
More of this “what about trans men?” canard? I already got the memo that trans women hate being associated with women, so when I hear hoof beats I think horse not zebra.
@Kimstu, when you said that the consensus of this thread is that everyone’s feelings are worthy of respect, you seemed to earnestly believe that. But if you look at the content of your posts, that respect is severely lacking. You seem to be bending over backwards to show how unreasonable it is to want biologically-based criteria for deciding which population of strangers should undress around another population. You’ve also been comparing the desire to have a penis-free space for undressing and showering to homophobia and racism. If that is showing respect for women’s feelings, I don’t know how you define respect.