Transgender topics

That is absolutely not what I intended with my post. Only YWTF was banned from the topic.

And I hope a clear message went out that when the next Transgender topic does start it is expected to stay on the topic of the OP.

As I posted, that thread was off the rails. Just modnoting it and removing one of the hijacking posters from it was not going to put it back on topic.

In the GD rules for almost a year now is this:

So better to close a trainwreck in this case.

And as I said, it’s not a forbidden topic.

That one was deep into the weeds and many of the posts were from a poster that now has a topic ban, and wouldn’t be able to respond to any responses to her.

The topic ban strikes me as an ill considered, or perhaps ill advised decision. Regardless of where you stand on the subject, @YWTF specifically, but other posters that hold a similar P.O.V. have consistently brought cites to the discussion. In contrast, those who disagreed brought mostly anecdotes. Nothing that I’ve read on the subject by the topic banned poster has struck me as hateful or bigoted. All of it was worthy of consideration and thoughtful discussion. Yes, even if sometimes heated.

If the objective on this board remains about having an open and informed conversation, banning posters who share possibly controversial insight that is more than simply anecdotal, is probably not the most effective way to go about fighting ignorance.

This is a surprise to no one, but I am strong disagreement with the topic ban on @YWTF, especially given this board’s long tolerance of Dopers who are truly derpy, provocative, and unequivocally offensive. Nothing she said in that thread was incorrect, and it was all completely appropriate for Great Debates. If the mods felt like she was derailing the topic, they could have just told her stop derailing and get back on topic. This is how other thread derailings are handled. So this decision is 100% bullshit, in my opinion.

I mean, I could see if @YWTF has been out here spamming the board with one-note-johnny transgender threads, but she hasn’t. She’s only guilty of being skeptical of certain aspects of woke conventional wisdom regarding gender identity. Skepticism is supposed to be a hallmark of rational thought. @YWTF brought sources to back up all of her claims, which most folks in that thread didn’t feel compelled to do. But we’re supposed to believe she’s the poor debater? Bullshit! GD used to be the best forum on the SDMB. It used to be where a person could go to be exposed to all sides of a controversial topic. But it’s turning into another social media echo chamber–a place where dissenting voices aren’t allowed, even when they are respectful and well-sourced.

I am seriously contemplating whether I want to keep posting here.

Ok, I’ll overcommunicate: TLDR if you like

Did you know in the last few months she made over a 1000 posts on this subject. That is a crazy high percentage of her total posts in that time also.

She needs a break. We did tell her to come back to us in a few weeks and appeal the decision. She has to learn how not to hijack threads on Transgenderism.

We didn’t decide this lightly. We spent too much of Sunday reviewing that thread and besides it being hopelessly off-topic, we found her to be the main cause and for a 4th time on the subject in a short period of time.

She is an excellent poster otherwise.

11 posts in thread, not sure if any were actually on topic.

33 in this thread, many or maybe most off topic.

Somehow in this thread too she turned it to Transgender debating.

1059 posts in this thread, where it was more on topic but this looks like obsession.

We have other Topic bans, this is not new. It doesn’t have to be permanent. Probably shouldn’t be.

I’m not sure what else I can say on this.

And of course she is more than welcome to post on any other subject. I’ve always thought she was an excellent poster, after not recognizing her new name. I honestly didn’t understand why this subject would draw someone in to be like an Astro-turfer, but was informed by my fellow mods, who she was and she just feels very passionate about the subject.

This^^. It’s exhausting just to read the same ludicrous anti-trans material over and over again even when one isn’t trans; when it’s actually personal, it must be soul-scarring.

As a counterpoint, YWTF’s posts have on occasion driven me to stop reading those threads, particularly where the line of discussion has strayed into “transwomen aren’t women” territory. I will concede that she doesn’t present many of the more toxic anti-trans positions we have seen on this board (some by now-banned posters, some by current posters) and has made many cogent points, but many of her posts have also gone well beyond “scepticism” and into strong personal emotive - and sometimes incredibly hurtful - language. And she has often derailed those threads to her own purposes.

So it’s all very well to talk about “dissenting voices”. But sometimes the reason those voices are dissenting is because they are unkind and even bullying. And the mods are left with the unpleasant choice of either moderating those voices - and being accused of promoting an “echo chamber” - or not doing so, and watching the targets of those voices being driven off instead.

The previous long running thread was a definite factor in our decision. Many of the same points and posts were being rehashed in the new thread. We do not want an echo chamber, but we also don’t want to have the same points over and over again.

It’s not being added as a thrice told tale, it’s not a forbidden topic.

But she and you, monstro, are both great posters and I hope you’ll stay.

As a counterpoint, YWTF’s posts have on occasion driven me to stop reading those threads, particularly where the line of discussion has strayed into “transwomen aren’t women” territory.

But this is a you problem, not a @YWTF problem. There are plenty of Dopers who disagree very much with @YWTF, but who still manage to engage her posts.

“Woman” is a sociopolitical label, which means it should be fair game for debate and discussion. If you think transwomen are women, that’s fine. But it is not axiomatic. It is not a scientific belief. It is something people can disagree with while still being supportive of trans rights. Progressives like myself have always been in a support of trans rights (protection in education, employment, health, housing, safety, etc.). But it’s only recently where “transwomen are women” has become the mantra we’re all expected to reflexively chant. This is super off-putting to me. When people seem to care more about a slogan than the logical implications of a slogan, I have a hard time listening to what they have to say. But I still try to listen.

You’re a great poster too. I just hate the moderation that happened in that thread and I think @YWTF is getting a raw deal.

In my experience, YWTF has been very good at contextualizing these statements as part of a traditional female-specific biological/medical context and possibly with respect to participation in women’s sports. I recall nothing indicating any sort of discriminatory bias or transphobia.

As explained above by the mod, the topic ban was aimed at reducing the perceived frequency and hyper-focus on the subject, not because of any expressed or implied bigotry.

She has made thoughtful and well-documented posts. But she’s presented the same handful of links in an awful lot of places, and often it’s not on topic.

I need to apologize because I took her bait in that thread, and I posted a lot of off-topic material, too. But the topic was “how have things changed”, and she bent it into “oh noes, people are operating on children”. The vast majority of trans people are not children, and the vast majority of gender confirmation surgery is performed on adults, and we’ve spent a lot of pixels arguing about transgender children in the past. It would be nice if a transgender discussion could focus on other issues. And it is certainly my impression that she has pulled other trans discussions in the same direction many times.

I support the topic ban at least for a while.

(To be clear, I am just a poster on great debates, it’s not a forum that I moderate, and I was not part of the email discussion among the great debates mods.)

We worked together to discuss the best path forward and I’m sorry you hate the moderation.

It is true. These threads read very much like the “rational racist” threads used to read (with some of the same arguments! which makes it even more deja-vu-y). It would be nice to get some better ground rules around the topic rather than having to wade through the transphobia for over a decade.

I agree with this. And the topic ban was specifically for derailing threads. Seems totally in line with what’s been done in the past with posters who just can’t help themselves when it comes to certain issues.

Not even when she belittled another trans poster’s history with suicide?

Based on some responses, it’s clear that many posters don’t bother to read the cites. So repetition may be excused. Also, this is not a subject that tolerates much in the way of dissenting opinion by trans advocates. Assuming researchers aren’t looking to gain support from bigots, it should not be surprising that few of them are eager for the kind of negative attention this often draws.

I’m super confused. Explain to me how a discussion of the current medical approaches for helping gender dysphoric children is NOT a relevant part of the “how things have changed” conversation?

Twenty years ago, few people were seriously pushing for puberty blockers in children and mastectomies for teenagers. Now people are seriously pushing for these things, despite the lack of studies documenting their long-term effects. This is the direct result of the sweeping cultural shifts regarding transgenderism.

So our approach to transitioning kids is very much relevant to the topic. To take this topic off the table is to severely and artificially constrain the discussion so that the only reasonable answer to the OP’s question is “OF COURSE EVERYTHING IS BETTER NOW!” I guess that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it’s not a debate. It’s what you expect from a damn echo chamber, not a forum called Great Debates.

If you can point me to it, I’ll provide you with my take on it. But probably not in this thread as it doesn’t seem like the time or place to rehash it.

monstro, as I said in my TLDR post above, over a 1000 posts on this subject, dwarfing the rest of her posts looks like obsession. That alone is a decent reason for a topic ban.

Her posts along with a lot of others in the most recent thread were mostly off-topic.