Way late to the party…but to play Advocatus Dei for a second on the initial point of pitting I can very much understand where the pitee is coming from.
If one believes that suicides are tormented forever and informs others of this, the expected result is fewer suicides due to wishing to avoid torment - the net result being a positive for humanity. Fewer deaths, fewer grieving family members, fewer people being tormented forever etc. Doesn’t mean it’s true to the rest of us, but if you truly believe it then pointing out the fact is a logical and decent thing to do.
Incidentally, I’ve heard that the initial Christian prohibition on suicides came early on - missionaries telling the barbarian tribes of Europe how great heaven was. Naturally, why would you want to live on Earth much longer? Simply kill yourself and off you go. However this wasn’t exactly a plus point for the spread of Christianity so suicide gained more of a taboo status within the religion.
There is a point in what you were saying but I think it got lost. If there is evidence of a deity’s activity, a theist who believes that deity moves in mysterious ways can’t refuse to accept the evidence merely because the theist can’t understand why the deity would engage in that activity.
Such a result could be “expected” only by proselytizers who are arrogant enough to consider themselves persuasive and engaging spokespersons for their own beliefs.
A genuinely humble and sympathetic believer would be more likely to think that they might turn people off by thrusting their personal beliefs at them, and would be more inclined to act out their good wishes through empathy and kindness, instead of self-importantly assuming the role of spiritual warning system.
Yes, there are a shit ton of people out there who apparently hear in their heads “I am a heroic and righteous rescuer of souls” while the message they’re actually broadcasting is “I am an insensitive egotist asshole whose smug self-satisfaction gives a bad name to everything I believe in”. No, those people’s arrogant tub-thumping does not count as being “logical and decent”.
Kimtsu: An excellent pt in my humble opinion however I would like to call attention to the fact that unless a suicide was really only intended to be an attempt and therefore a cry for help, death is a faustian bargain with no downside for the vast majority of clinically depressed people.
Ya know, I didn’t want to bring up something I’d long since abandoned, but curiosity got the better of me when I kept seeing this and the other thread pop up in new posts… how come James’ erstwhile stalker isn’t all over his Facebook page like she is everywhere else? Is it possible he has her blocked or something else more complicated? Like maybe hiding her posts or something? Just wondering.
That is sadly all too true. An immediate family member of mine signed up for that bargain recently, and believe me I would have considered advocating any line of reasoning if it would have been effective in changing his mind about it in the short term.
However, that doesn’t justify blatting out faith-based talking points about suicides and their alleged afterlife to a bunch of random strangers on a messageboard who are lamenting the fate of a suicidal individual whose mind is no longer capable of being changed on the subject.
If those arrogant tub-thumpers would exchange their self-righteous preaching for getting out there and actually helping the miserable to bear their misery, I’d have more respect for their beliefs.
Kimstu: I’m truly sorry to hear that. At least you realize it was beyond your control and don’t blame yourself, so maybe it will be easier to heal. I wish you well.
Thank you, deltasigma. Don’t worry, it’s just the sixth of the five classic stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance followed by caustic grumpiness.
Self-delusion is core to the mindset. The very initial premise is of an omniscient deity who cares about the method of death and has a special place to torment you, no part of which has any tangible evidence to support it. Once you get over that hurdle convincing yourself that you can be an eloquent and persuasive champion of the cause is child’s play. The internal logic and morality that spurs the action (I believe suicides are tormented, therefore I must point this out to prevent further occurrences) is still consistent even if the premise is fatally flawed as is the execution.
ETA: Sorry for your loss…in that light I can well understand how this clumsy prosthelytizing is hard to take on any level.
Yes. But the idea is so nebulous for me that even reading your post, I can only grasp it every other time I read it.
I was having a very similar discussion with a Christian and he said, “When we try to understand God, it’s like dogs trying to understand man.”
And I wondered how he could tell me ANYTHING about god, then? How can you be Christian or Jewish or Muslim if your understanding of god is like a dog to men. Dogs understand nearly nothing about men! (not to upset dog lovers…I’m talking true knowledge of a man and his business).
But I couldn’t really articulate my thoughts on the matter well, so I wasn’t able to have that conversation with the Christian. I often find myself in conversations on the topic that I’m ill equipped to hold up. I find the entire topic troubling, starting with the very definition of ‘god’.
This is most certainly the case, and is probably what she’s referring to when she talks about being banned from “his website.” A lot of people refer to celeb’s FB pages as their “website.”
May Jesus assume the image of James Otto multiple times and engage in homo-erotic intercourse for your viewing pleasure - each and every possible all ways.
