Jan 6 ceremony and NO members of the republican party attended except:

I think you underestimate just how much Trump has taken over the party. If you vote Republican, you are supporting Trump and the Big Lie.

I’m not going to go point by point – we’ll never agree on this, it seems.

Look what happens when a Trump enabler tries growing a backbone:

Yep. And we can clearly see who holds sway over the Republicans - not, ya know, people elected in elections by voters - nooo…

I’ve been trying to avoid watching that clip because I can’t stand either one of them, but I just did and, wow. It’s a Republican senator essentially giving an on-air blowjob to a Fox News blowhard to avoid annoying his master Trump and his other masters at Fox.

Cringe-worthy doesn’t begin to cover it.

Well, largely I don’t vote Republican, but certainly if the choice is between a Democrat committing criminal tax evasion, identity fraud, and various other misdeeds and a Republican without a criminal record (a true choice for County Clerk a few years ago) I’m going to choose the law-abiding citizen.

I’ve also been known to vote for independents and third party members where that option is available.

Not big on absolutes.

OP: Why do you find this unacceptable? After all, it’s just a literary trope that the criminals return to the scene of the crime. If they were to have attended, then they would be admitting that their own actions and that of their tan-in-a-can leader were wrong. So, they have a choice: 1-continue to push the Big Lie and thus get TIACL’s imprimatur and therefore more votes in their next election, or 2-admit they were wrong. How many politicians do you know make the selection that guarantees fewer votes?

p.s. Why, today, would you identify with a party that has now proven its core is domestic terrorism?

This thread is very sad.

It’s sad that that it took an actual coup attempt to get some Republicans to understand what their party is and always has been.

It’s sad that even those Republicans have been buying the propaganda that the right has been promulgating about the left for decades.

It’s sad that the Democrats haven’t done a better job of countering the lies, the smears, and the slanders.

It’s mostly sad that people whose eyes are being opened keep telling themselves - have to keep telling themselves - that something has changed about the party, that Trump was an aberration, that the party is still individuals and not a monolith, that none of this could have been foreseen, and that they were not complicit in its triumph. And it’s sad that they can tell themselves that the answer is to be independent rather than fight the party tooth and nail and rouse every other person who’s been awakened to not just leave the party but destroy it and build something new and better.

Nobody wants to hear that they’ve been on the wrong side their entire lives. I absolutely understand that. But like all addicts, people who were addicted to the Republican party have to look into that mirror and realize that they’re hit bottom, renounce that life, move to the other side, apologize for all the harm, and work to make things better. If that means automatically and reflexively voting solely for Democrats, that’s the state the country is in. No healing can begin without fully acknowledging the disease.

In what way do Republicans and Trumpists differ in terms of who they will vote for and what policies they will support?

You’re clinging on to literally 1-3 exceptions. The degree to which Republicans all feel in line to support Trump when he fell to New less time and time again indicates that the principled, thinking republican is effectively non-existant and the cult is total.

I realize you’ll say that this is exactly the sort of view you’re denouncing by this is just the reality we live in now. Catering to the good will or decency or principles of Republicans has achieved nothing but losing to people acting in bad faith.

I’m sure blowhards give the best blowjobs, and they expect the same in return.

And I will continue to cling to them.

Uh, okay; but Trump went down in defeat to Biden rather than triumphing — and now languishes in defeat, even as the individuals he tapped for the Supreme Court deliver right-wing triumphs in general without rubber-stamping his aberrant desires in particular. And then there are Republican individuals who currently hold elected office, and who got voted for by yours truly: let’s say I keep grinning in approval upon seeing them continue to push back against this or that initiative from Democrats; and let’s say I figure on once again voting against Trump if he’s the candidate in 2024, but that I’d gladly vote for the right individual instead — instead of “automatically and reflexively voting solely for Democrats,” because, hey, I don’t automatically and reflexively vote for anyone.

Would that sadden you for the same reasons, or for different reasons, or not at all?

Thinking that Republicans are good faith actors who want the common good is the tactic the democrats have been using that has handed all power to the Republicans and lost over and over again. It’s the attitude we’re telling ourselves as we allow them to execute their coup. Right now.

I understand that you’re not failing to acknowledge this part, that the vast majority of Republicans are not good faith actors, but I’m saying this coup is not going to be abetted by trying to appeal to the 1% of republican reps that are not in full cult mode. Appealing to the good will of Republicans is not going to stop this coup and it pretends that something within the realm of normalcy and reason is going on and can be used to bridge the divide, which is the key attitude that is allowing the coup to happen unopposed.

We need to me screaming from the rooftops how well past normalcy we are, and that Republicans have rallied around their tribe and are in full cult mode. Appealing to their good nature and good faith is useless because they’ve rallied around a cult that does not have those things. They exploit such gestures.

I am fully behind opposing the death cult that is the Trumpian Republican Party, but that won’t stop me from trying to save people from the cult. Those that can be saved should be saved because they are fellow human beings.

If we condemn out of hand anyone who at any time wore the label “Republican” then we are no better than they are.

If you condemn absolutely all Republicans then you have backed them all into a corner, and cornered people are dangerous. Give people an out and some of them will leave the cult, and any way we can bleed the Trumpists is a good thing.

I swear I made my post before I saw this:

Even setting that aside, the BLM protests in Washington, although causing some looting and arson of private property, did not come anywhere near trying to interrupt government proceedings – especially one involved in one of our most foundational cornerstones, the peaceful transfer of power. Anyone who cannot see that is either willfully ignorant or playing a ‘gotcha’ game.

I’m sad because I look at the entire Republican party. I see the party menacing school boards for mask mandates and for teaching a CRT that doesn’t exist in schools. I see the party issuing death threats to election officials for not falsifying elections. I see the party strangling votes from people of color in state after state. I see those same states shutting abortion clinics and terrorizing women. I see those states refusing money from the government to improve health care. I see those states’ representatives voting down major bills and then calling press conferences to boast about the money that will be coming in. I see those states ordering cities not to report about COVID cases.

And then I see Congress. Never mind that I see representatives and senators who feared for their lives on January 6 and denounced it on January 7 get even more frightened on January 8 and insist that it was a normal tourist visit and refuse to have an investigation. More than that I see a party that votes in lockstep to block legislation, keep from confirming justices, ambassadors, and executive branch staff, and allow their extremists to go unpunished. I see a party that has not offered any policy recommendations that might address the real, looming needs of America. I see a party that has become so anti-science that the existential threat of climate change is derided by bringing a snowball into the halls of Congress.

You want to tell me there are good Republicans who achieve good things? How many of the people who voted for impeachment will be in Congress next term? What difference will they make in a world where Liz and Dick Cheney are ostracized for calling out a riot whose members called for the death of the Republican Vice President?

Yes, save people from the cult. As I said above, we can no longer think of party differences as being the normal back and forth of politics. Conservatism is an addiction that must be treated as one. Ending the addiction will bring families together, encourage actual medical care rather than quackery, help the needy, stop the endless death threats, and raise living standards for all Americans. Enabling the addiction can only bring all the known horrors of a descending spiral into harm and madness that spins out of control and hurts not just the addict but everyone around, families and friends and communities. Admit that you have a problem, stop taking your death drug, and then stage interventions for your fellow addicts. That’s not liberal hatred coming toward you; it’s human compassion.

I think it’s important to pick our words carefully.
Conservatism is fine as a political philosophy in principle and in many countries in practice. I actually skew somewhat conservative myself.

However, the current republican party has no principles at all is utterly morally bankrupt. They don’t care about democracy and the no-show today (indeed showing up on FOX to continue the misinformation) is just the latest evidence of that.

Anyone with any interest in objectivity, democracy and heck, civility, must, absolutely, reject the current republican party.
They can still consider themselves conservative but they need to vote for the grown ups.

What do you expect them to do? The Democrats have been telling the truth, but those on the other side are fully invested in accepting a lie and refuse to believe the truth. There is nothing to sway such a person from that ideology.

“The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite about it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous.” - H.L. Mencken

“It is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false.” - H.L. Mencken

IMHO the Democrats could be more forceful in exposing the lies and go on offense against misinformation with more gusto. The Republican lie machine just keeps making stuff up and I don’t see the counter-offensive yet.

This. Biden and all Democrats need to counter the Big Lie(s) with the Big Truth.

What does that mean? The “big lie” (a concept usually attributed to Hitler) means: Pound on the lie! Repeat it often, loudly, vociferously, vehemently, and consistently! Have all your sycophants, enablers, and assorted fellow-travelers bleat out the Big Lie at every turn! Beat it into the brains of the Masses! Shout it from every rooftop, every day.

Democrats must give Truth the same treatment, thus making it the Big Truth. Biden needs to give a speech like that often – I’d say once each month – to be echoed daily by the entire coterie of Democratic officials, congresscritters, governors, media talking heads – never let the message fade from anyone’s ears.

If a Big Lie can be so convincing, maybe the Big Truth, similarly handled, can be too. Or at least, if the Big Lie can at least bring the Republican Faithful stampeding to the polls (and to the school board meetings), then maybe the Big Truth can work like that too.

But I don’t see them doing that. EVERY Democrat who has a significant voice in the public sphere needs to be shouting the Big Truth daily. I’m not seeing it happening.