Japanese Imperial male-only succesion

Factual Questions
1

This is no longer current news, since the wife of the current heir has finally born a male child, but it still has me puzzled for some time:

why does the current Japanese society still cling to the “only males can inherit the throne” and “it’s the woman’s fault if no male child is born” ideas?

First, according to legend, the Japanese Royal Family traces their lineage to the Sun GoddessAmeratsu, right? A female goddess? So why were only male heirs acceptable?

Secondly, I understand that in times of Henry VIII, that people, esp. men, thought “general virility = getting an erection = producing babies” and that women were a passive flower pot into which the male seed was planted. Due to the ancient myth of the king’s health being bound to the land; and the lack of microscopes preventing lackluster sperm from being seen in semen; and that it was impossible to suggest that a healthy king might not get it up, or might get it up but not make viable babies.

But this is the 21st century. We’ve had biology for over a hundred years and know that “getting it up is not automatically equal to being fertile”, and for over fifty years we know how the X chromosome to make male babies can only come from the male, so if only girl babies are born, it’s NOT the woman’s “fault”.

How and why do the Japanese people and the Imperial Court still put so much pressure on the wife of the crown prince that she got a severe depression, instead of both going to a fertility doctor?

Surely the average Japanese on the street as well as members of the Imperial Court did have basic biology in school - they are an educated country. Is this just a mental block they have, where normal biology doesn’t apply to the Imperial Family? It’s taboo to talk about it?

Why did it take so long (and was quickly dropped) for the idea to broaden the lineage to “male and female children”? Esp. since regardless of gender, not every child is suited for the job and may want to do something else than being prince or emperor when grown up; therefore, choosing the most ablest from several children makes far more sense.

2

Because there hasn’t been a case where it was an issue until now.

Japanese emperors always had male heirs. That was because the emperor practiced polygamy up until around 1920. When you have several wives, the odds of a male heir are pretty good. After polygamy was ended, there always was a male heir, so the question didn’t come up.

3

No, she hasn’t. The discussion ended when Prince Akishino (younger brother of the heir) and his wife had a male child.

Why are you equating the two? The Imperial Household Agency is subject to harsh criticism in Japan. And I don’t know why you’re assuming that Princess Masako hasn’t consulted with doctors about her fertility.

Changing the succession to include female children is supported by a strong majority of the Japanese population and generally only opposed by the very conservative (who are, of course, over represented in the Diet). No progress has been made on this despite the support for change because a) Japanese politics have been a complete mess for the last few years and b) it’s not a pressing issue.

4

I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of it comes down to concepts of ritual cleanliness. This is a society where (at least I’m told) when a tour bus visits an important shrine like Ise, females are politely informed that they must stay on the tour bus if they happen to be having their monthly inconvenience at that time, lest they bring the defilement of blood to the shrine’s sacred grounds.

5

Japan did have a few female sovereigns back in the the day. Said day being mostly in the 8th century during the Nara period ( when the Imperial house was still a dominant power rather than a puppet ). The last with any power was Koken ( r. 749-758 )/Shotoku ( r. 765-770 ) the same empress, but with two different regnal periods and hence two regnal names. In 781 on the death of Emperor Konin the council of ministers refused to enthrone a female successor and established the precedent of no ( but see exceptions below ) female sovereigns. As noted there was rarely a shortage of males from one line or another - the royal family ramified into a large clan affair and ultimately was the origin of many noble houses who could trace themselves back to a younger son of one sovereign or another.

Nonetheless there were still two empresses during the Tokugawa period ( when the Imperial house was in fact utterly powerless ) - Meisho ( r. 1629-1643 ) and Go-Sakuramachi ( r. 1762-1771 ). So the precedent really does exist and is hardly that aberrant in concept, even by traditional Japanese standards.

6

Women were not actually barred from inheriting the throne until the Meiji Constitution of 1889. I don’t know why this change was made, but I suspect it was to bring things more in line with Western practice.

I would assume that they have seen fertility doctors. Do you know they haven’t?

Japanese women I knew when I lived in Japan tended to be sympathetic towards Crown Princess Masako, and everyone who ever mentioned the subject to me felt that she’d been treated very badly. It was not my impression that the average Japanese person believed Masako was somehow morally to blame for failing to conceive a son. I’m not certain if she even did fail to conceive a son, as she had at least one miscarriage before the birth of her daughter. But in order for the Imperial family to continue, either she or her sister-in-law Princess Kiko needed to have a son. Both women were in their early 40s before Princess Kiko did give birth to a son, so for a while it was looking likely that there was not going to be any male heir at all after the deaths of the Crown Prince and his brother.

In my experience Japanese people didn’t talk much about the Imperial family because they didn’t care that much about the Imperial family. There was actually more interest in the British royal family among people I knew, although my perspective may be skewed as nearly everyone I knew spoke or was studying English.

A number of changes to succession law were made after World War II. These were intended to limit the size and influence of the Imperial family. Historically there were several cadet branches of the Imperial family whose sons were potentially eligible to inherit the throne, but this is no longer the case. I believe succession is currently limited to male-line descendants of the Taisho Emperor (Hirohito’s father). The Imperial family is not permitted to adopt an heir either, something that was done in the past.

In theory the male-line descendants of the late Emperor Hirohito’s brothers or the current Emperor Akihito’s brother would also be eligible for the throne, but all living men in these lines are elderly and either childless or only have daughters. There were no sons born into the Imperial family for 41 years, until the birth of Prince Hisahito in 2006. Had Hisahito been a girl instead the law almost certainly would have been changed to allow the daughters to inherit the throne.

I have never been to the Ise Grand Shrine, but I visited a number of shrines and temples while living in Japan and no one ever said a word to me about staying away if I had my period. I don’t remember this being mentioned in any of my guidebooks either. I’m not sure what this would have to do with the royal succession anyway.

7

It was just my WAG, but doesn’t the Emperor play an extremely important role in the rituals of Shinto? And Shinto is very big on ritual cleanliness. That’s why I guessed there might be a connection.

8

Shinto is big on ritual cleanliness, but State Shinto died at the end of WWII. I don’t know what role the current Emperor plays in the Shinto religion, but he’s much less important to the religion than his father Hirohito was.

Even if menstruating women are supposed to stay away from shrines (and this is the first I’ve heard of it) I don’t see how this particular religious belief would prevent modern Japanese people from understanding how babies are made. Japan is a first world country with a pretty well-educated population. While there are superstitious or just plain stupid people there the same as anywhere else, I very much doubt that any significant portion of the population believes that Crown Princess Masako didn’t have a son because she was ritually unclean.

9

Sorry, got confused there.

Because I rely on the normal news coverage in Europe, where it’s reported as “The wife of Prince … is under considerable stress because she hasn’t become pregnant yet/ hasn’t borne a son yet”, just a small snippet. That’s why I’m asking here because I know we have dopers with deeper insight and knowledge about affairs in Japan.

Ah. Thanks for that info.

10

[quote=“Lamia, post:6, topic:592454”]

I would assume that they have seen fertility doctors. Do you know they haven’t?

[QUOTE]

I don’t know; its just very puzzling to me when the news say that “she still isn’t pregnant after being married for several years and the Court is putting pressure on her”. My first impulse is that for some reason they haven’t seen doctors yet, because otherwise there would be treatment.

Though given that not all couples in the West who go for treatment have a 100% success rate either, that could be the case.

It sounds as if it’s a result of omissions in the reporting leading to different impressions.

11

A lot of the reason they did refuse to enthrone a female successor, though, was because of Empress Koken/Shotoku, who’s reign was a disaster. She was a Buddhist religious fanatic with a lot of lovers, all of whom were constantly scheming to become emperor and assassinating each other. Then, after she abdicated in favor of her cousin, she fell in love with a Buddhist priest and faith healer named Dokyo, overthrew the new emperor at his urging, became emperor Shotoku, and tried to make Dokyo her heir.

After she died, there was the general consensus that women were just too crazy to make good emperors.

And more generally, as to the other thing, Shinto considers blood unclean, and menstruating women still aren’t supposed to enter Shinto shrines, although I don’t think that’s enforced as strictly as it used to be.

12

Given the way the Imperial Household Agency operates and the attitude of the Japanese press towards the Imperial family, it’s unlikely that it would be reported that the Crown Prince and Princess were seeking fertility treatments.

Princess Masako has been pregnant at least twice, one ending in miscarriage and one resulting in the birth of her daughter, Princess Aiko. So if she did receive fertility treatment then it apparently was successful, it’s just that the child she actually had didn’t count as an heir.

13

The entire basis for a monarchy is adherence to tradition. If you start rationalizing the traditions you quickly reach the point where you ask if the monarchy itself is a rational foundation for a government.

14

This is pretty weird, and it’s not your fault: the name of the founding goddess is “Amaterasu”. But the name of the English language wiki page has that weird misspelling, and if you search wiki for “Amaterasu” it tells you that there is no such page.

I agree, and following this argument to its logical conclusion, you should choose the ablest person from the general population rather than from a particular family, and abandon the idea of hereditary monarchy.
As others have said, the sympathy of the Japanese public has been very definitely on the side of the princess - the Imperial Household Agency is perceived as a somewhat sinister organisation.

15

The “women as passive vessel” idea goes back even farther, as far as Aristotle in ancient Greece.

16

Men may be the ones who provide the Y chromosome, but it’s the women who handled that Y chromosome last.

There’s increasing evidence that there are maternal factors that may make some women more predisposed to bearing more male offspring.

Here’s a review article on the topic: The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines

It’s neither comprehensive or definitive, but it is food for thought. Other hypotheses are being studied that look into the various molecular factors that might be involved with some women producing more of one gender than expected.

17

“Shinto” isn’t really an entity in the way Christianity is anyway. It’s not like Christianity where you have a clear delineation of power, the Emperor isn’t exactly “Pope” since there’s no one kami to follow. Shinto (and Japanese religion in general) follows the key principles of: Surface, Temporary, Beneficial, Liberated.
Without going into too much detail, it essentially boils down to: you pick a god who represents something you need (or you pick Oinari-Ookami, who represents the hilariously vague “success” nowadays), go to their shrine, and pray. If it doesn’t work, you pick one of the other dozens of kami who represent something similar and ask them for the favor. After the favor is granted? You drop them like a hot potato. Japanese religion in its modern incarnation doesn’t have any excessive dedication to any sort of “patron deity,” so worrying about the Emperor because he’s related to Amaterasu-Oomikami isn’t exactly something you do unless you have something to gain from Amaterasu at the moment (other than the sun rising, I guess. I think everyone pretty much just takes that one for granted by now).

18

Er, I didn’t mean to imply that Christianity all follows the Pope. I was just saying that given the state of religion’s non-dedicatedfulnessitude in Japan, saying “The Emperor is a descendant of Amaterasu-Oomikami” isn’t like saying “He’s the descendant of Jesus” since, even if someone was, we’re talking about a country that wouldn’t care unless you needed something from Jesus on your next test.

19

No, you’re correct. I go to Ise Jingu every year. I don’t know if they specifically mention in on the bus tours, but women who are menstruating technically shouldn’t attend.

20

Do you know why, in the line of succession for the British throne, males still have the preference over women? Why hasn’t that been changed?