Royalty and Male Succession To The Throne

Factual Questions
1

I read that in Sweden the eldest childed is next in line to the throne, regardless of it’s male or female.

Are there other nations like (or even “tribes” or whatver) like this or does it appear male first, then female where it’s the rule.

Are there any nations which skip females all together? Or were there?

It’d be intesting if Diana had had a female first then a male, I wondered if a more modern UK would ever change.

And as a side question since the thone of the UK is also the same King/Queen of Canada, New Zealand etc, if they changed the order in the UK would they also have to change it in all the other countries that recognize the British monarch as their own?

2

The change in Sweden, if I recall, is relatively recent.

A change has been proposed in the UK. It would have no immediate effect, since the current heir to throne is an eldest son, and his heir is also an eldest son, and he has no children yet.

However legislation affecting the succession to the throne requires the consent of the parliaments of all of those Commonwealth countries which have the British monarch as head of state, of which there are (I think) sixteen. Most of them would have other legislative priorities, so organizing this might not be simple, and a considerable amount of diplomatic and political capital might have to be expended. Furthermore it’s quite possible that some of them would decide that they didn’t really need to bother with this any more, and switch to a republican model. So the whole thing has been put into the “too hard” basket.

There are, or at least were, countries where male preference was even stronger than in the UK. When William IV, King of the UK and of Hanover, died, he was succeeded under UK Law by his niece Victoria, the daughter of his deceased next brother Edward, but under Hanoverian law by Ernst, his next living brother.

3

Different peoples have applied differing combinations of rules of succession. There have been those that allowed only male successors (Japan); there have been those that put male successors first in line (Britain); there have been those that treated male and female successors equally. There have been even more variants. In France, also, Salic law prohibited succession by women, I believe

In fact, I believe that Japan is already considering a change, because there have been some panics regarding the absence of legitimate heirs.

Discussion for change has also been happening in Britain, which also removes Catholics from succession, although the Blair government blocked any such moves.

And, yes, if Britain changed its rules of succession, the rules of succession would have to be changed individually for Canada, Australia, etc., or else the monarchy might be split.

4

1980, and Sweden was the first country in the world to have equal primogeniture. Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands have since adopted it and Spain & Denmark are considering it. There’s also Semi-Salic law where females can only succeed all male heirs are dead (not just her brothers); the closet female relative of the last male titleholder succeeds. Luxembourg and Liechtenstein use Semi-Salic law and the former Austrian an Russian monarchies did as well.

5

I believe that they’ve stopped seriously discussing this since Crown Prince Naruhito’s younger brother’s wife gave birth to a son, Hisahito , in 2006. There was talk of changing the law before this, as both Naruhito and his brothers only had daughters.

6

Yes, I believe that all the Commonwealth Realms have legally-distinct monarchies; they just happen to all be occupied by the same person (and family and succession rules) right now. But theoretically Canada could have a different succession that the UK or Australia.

Good luck getting that one through parliament; it would probably require a constitutional amendment, which would require consent of the federal government and (IIRC) of provinces representing sixty percent of the population, which would mean that Quebec, Alberta, and Ontario would have to actually agree on something…

7

Sunspace - an amendment to the Canadian constitution requires resolutions from the House, the Senate and 2/3 (7) of the provinces representing 50% of the population of the country.

However, in matters related to the office of the Queen, resolutions are required from the House, the Senate and 100% of the provinces.

See items 38 and 41

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/annex_e.html#V

8

Since the end of WWII, Japan leaves women out in the cold for succession. Not only can they not ascend to the Chrysanthemum throne, their offspring are not allowed to, ether.

This had caused a serious problem since there had not been any (obviously male) heirs in something like 31 years, until September 2006 when the second son of the current emperor gave birth to a son. This effectively stopped the movement to allow women to succeed to the throne.

9

qwest, that’s even more difficult that I thought.

10

As others have mentioned, the matter in Japan was quietly dropped as soon as Princess Kiko had a son in 2006, even though at the time popular support for changing the succession laws was somewhere in the 80% range.

By tradition, the imperial mojo can only be passed through the male bloodline, and this was the bigger obstacle to changing the succession rule, as the empress’ children would have a non-imperial father. In the past, there have been several instances of emperesses, but in each case they were succeeded by the son or grandson of the brother of a previous emperor, so that the direct-male lineage was kept intact.

11

When did the Emperors become monogomous?

12

Erm… are you saying the Emperors have to breed without involving women?

Where does the baby come out?

13

No, he’s saying that you can only ascend to the throne as emperor if you are descended from an emperor through a male line.

Under the Imperial House Law, the succession is (in order and male only) -

The eldest son of the Emperor
The eldest son of the Emperor’s eldest son
Other descendants of the eldest son of the Emperor
The second son of the Emperor and his descendants
Other descendants of the Emperor
Brothers of the Emperor and their descendants
Uncles of the Emperor and their descendants

14

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know who would be the current British monarch if the British required exclusive male-line descendence, say, beginning with George I?

15

It would be this guy:

Ernst August, the husband of Princess Caroline of Monoco, and pretender to the Duchy of Hannover.

16

It would be the same as far as William IV (who was king of the UK and of Hanover). Then it’s the Hanoverian line:

Ernest Augustus I of Hanover (reigned 1837-1851)

George V of Hanover (reigned 1851-1866, and died in 1878 – the Hanoverian monarchy ended in 1866)

Ernest Augustus, Crown Prince of Hanover (who would have come to the throne in 1878, and who died in 1923)

Ernest Augustus, Duke of Brunswick (who died in 1953)

Ernest Augustus IV, Prince of Hanover (who died in 1978)

Ernst August V, Prince of Hanover (born in 1954 and still living)

17

The other interesting what-if speculation is, “What if British succession law had changed during Victoria’s reign to give equal rights to her female and male descendants?” Then the monarchs of the UK, and of other Commonwealth countries, would have been:

Her oldest child, Victoria, Princess Royal, who was married to the German Emperor, and whould have reined for about 6 months in 1901.

William II, German Emperor, the Princess Royal’s oldest child, who reigned as German Emperor in 1888-1918, and who would have reigned as King William V of the UK in 1901-1941. Of course, with the personal union of the British and German thrones, it’s hard to imagine World War I having taken place in quite the same way.

Crown Prince William of Germany, who would have been William VI in 1941-1951.

Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, who would have been king in 1951-1994

The two older sons of Louis Ferdinand having renounced their succession rights to the throne of Prussia (though they might not have done this for the British throne), the current monarch might have been:

Princess Marie Cécile of Prussia

Since her son, and her son’s children, are Catholics, they are out of the line of succession, and the Princess of Wales would be her daughter:

Duchess Rixa of Oldenburg

A future Queen Rixa? Sounds pretty cool! (And she is still in line to the British throne, behind 156 others)

18

Well, not really. The War of the Roses was argued in part over whether salic law (which prohibited inheritance through the female line) applied. The entire House of York based their claim because of a descendent through the female line (as well as a descendent through the male line, but lesser line than that of the house of Lancaster). So Richard of York’s claim on Henry VI’s throne would have been ignored, and Edward IV, V, and Richard III never become king.

Also, Henry VII was descended through the female line.

Going further back, the Plantagenet kings all descended via Miltilda, daughter of Henry I.

19

It did. It was even eventually interpreted to prohibit succession through the female line when the alternative would have made England’s Edward III the heir to the throne of France. Caused a bit of a squabble, as I recall. :wink:

(Since virtually nobody will recognize a Yellowbeard reference …
Bosun Moon: “What happened in here?”
Blind Pew: “Sounded like there was a bit of a squabble.”
Moon: “Squabble? They’re all dead!”
Pew: "Oh! Must have been more of a tiff, then.)

20

But would they have married her off to the heir to a foreign throne if she’d had been in line for Great Britain’s, though?