Jason Giambi admits to using steroids

[Neurotik]

@Airman Doors

And you don’t have to put your health at risk to play professional sports. Not everyone juices. It’s a choice you have to make for yourself. Hundreds of athletes are very successful without the juice, and all are at least good enough to make the bigs without it.

Are they? There were several borderline players taking steroids, perhaps without them they don’t make the cut.

And fairness in sports? Hah! If sports were fair I’d be the starting goalkeeper for Manchester United. Instead I was lucky to get off the bench. Too bad, so sad.

That doesn’t make any sense. How is it fair for you to be starting for ManU when you’re not good enough. That’s what I would call unfair.

You sure you’re a conservative and not a liberal? I’m pretty sure it’s the liberals who are accused of wanting equal results no matter the talent level.

I mean, how unfair it is. They get paid millions of dollars to play a kid’s game. How unfair and brutal their lives are. Boo hoo hoo.

Ah, that clears things up. You’re envious and resentful. Gotcha.

7 MVP Awards is astonishing, juice or not.

He only had 3 before he started juicing. Then he won 4 straight. Sounds like it’s a little more than a slight edge.

The stuf does not make you that much better. In baseball, at best you might see an increase in distance. I’d venture to guess that it would amount to a few dozen dingers over a career if you’re somehow lucky enough to hit as many as 500. Small change.

Barry Bonds added over 20 per season and .150 to his SLG compared to his previous average after he started juicing. That’s a big difference. In fact, it’s the difference between being talked about as one of the three best hitters ever and not even being mentioned in the top 10.

Jason Giambi went from barely cracking 25 homers to averaging around 40 per season and boosted his SLG about .150 points as well. Again, not exactly an insignificant difference. In fact, it’s the difference between being another above-average player to being a perennial MVP candidate.

Muscle makes a huge difference on guys who can already make regular contact with a major league fastball.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Neurotik

Ah, that clears things up. You’re envious and resentful. Gotcha.

Nope. I’m envious in the way that everyone is envious, but so what? I’m just telling it like it is. For a few million dollars a year I don’t see anything that could justify resentment towards someone who is risking their own life by their own choice.

He only had 3 before he started juicing. Then he won 4 straight. Sounds like it’s a little more than a slight edge.

Only three? Thatwas only tied for the highest total ever at that time. Only three, indeed!

Oh, and I don’t believe that Barry Bonds is juicing. Can you prove that he is? What I see is a great player that has gotten better through hard work. And even if he is,a juicer he’s still head and shoulders over everyone else (see comment about 3 MVP Awards above).

[manhattan]

I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
More seriously, Airman, do you believe that Major League Baseball ought to have the right to ban steroids even if you believe the government ought not have that right, just as amateur sports organizations “ban” any number of otherwise legal medications? If you believe they should have that right, should they do it?

[Ramanujan]

@manhattan

More seriously, Airman, do you believe that Major League Baseball ought to have the right to ban steroids even if you believe the government ought not have that right, just as amateur sports organizations “ban” any number of otherwise legal medications? If you believe they should have that right, should they do it?

i’m right with airman here, so i’ll go ahead and throw my own response in here. sure major league baseball ought to have the right to make up whatever rules for the game they want. i don’t think they should ban steroids.

legalizing “performance-enhancing drugs” would have several effects. for one, it would make them readily available to athletes who previously couldn’t (or wouldn’t) get them, levelling the playing field with those who already take them. second, their general acceptance and widespread use would likely have the effect of making them safer. and c, why shouldn’t people be allowed to enhance their performances by any means they have of modifying their own body? i see no reason why performance-enhancing drugs should earn a stigma that eating properly and exercising hard shouldn’t, other than the health issues. if those were solved and the use of these drugs was no longer against the rules, what would anyone’s problem be?

also, as to the health issues: many professional athletes (i played football for a number of years, so it’s of that sport that i think when i mention this) are risking their health and well-being (hell, even life, in some cases–just ask clint malarchuk) just playing the game. a professional football player necessarily comes out a less healthy man than he went in, or he didn’t do a whole lot to affect the game. so i say let them risk their health if that’s what they want.

[Marley23]

@Ramanujan

why shouldn’t people be allowed to enhance their performances by any means they have of modifying their own body? i see no reason why performance-enhancing drugs should earn a stigma that eating properly and exercising hard shouldn’t, other than the health issues.

Isn’t “health issues” a big chunk of the reason? Arguments like “it’s a horrible example for children” and “there’s an obvious difference between exercising and eating right and injecting Human Growth Hormone” may sound old-fashioned, but I think they’re correct.

The column whoisme refers to has a good chunk of truth to it. People are going to be outraged and shocked by this, but nobody should be. Anybody who really thought baseball players were clean was completely deluded. That doesn’t make it acceptable that players are using steroids.

[Troy_McClure_SF]

@Neurotik

He only had 3 [MVPs] before he started juicing.

Dude.

[Chastain86]

@Ramanujan

second, their general acceptance and widespread use would likely have the effect of making them safer.

Can I ask you to explain this? Because you can’t possibly believe this statement as it’s read.

If you believe for a second that people haven’t spent the last 20 years trying desperately to find a safe alternative to anabolic steroids, then you’re misinformed. Hell, in college as a weightlifter, I took many enhancement drugs that purported to replicate the steroid effect without the side-effects. Most were taken off the market.

@Ramanujan

and c, why shouldn’t people be allowed to enhance their performances by any means they have of modifying their own body? i see no reason why performance-enhancing drugs should earn a stigma that eating properly and exercising hard shouldn’t, other than the health issues. if those were solved and the use of these drugs was no longer against the rules, what would anyone’s problem be?

Nothing, but if blue sugarplum fairies were to pop out of my ass and give me a million dollars, I wouldn’t have anything negative to say, either. And it’s just as likely a scenario.

This is quickly turning into a “legalize steroids” debate. The fact of the matter is, steroids are NOT legal, and are not allowed by the major sporting organizations because they provide an unfair edge. End of story, end of debate.

I agree with other posters that steroid usage in professional sports is old news. But if you find out that your 2001 MVP, as Giambi was, was using a controlled substance designed to give you an unfair competitive edge, then that title should be stripped away and given to the 2nd place vote-getter. This shouldn’t even be a debate – the NCAA is more than willing to strip away a season’s worth of wins over a player accepting gifts from alumni, and that is not nearly the heinous crime of creating an unfair playing field.

[VarlosZ]

Using steroids or growth hormone without a doctor’s supervision is both dangerous and illegal. From MLB’s standpoint, then, it’s more than a little ridiculous to say “If you don’t want Jason Giambi to have a big advantage over you, then you have to break the law and risk your life.”

Besides, what’s compelling as a spectator are the questions of who works the hardest or has the most natural talent; “Who knows the best chemist?” is less compelling, somehow.

[Ramanujan]

@Marley23

Isn’t “health issues” a big chunk of the reason? Arguments like “it’s a horrible example for children” and “there’s an obvious difference between exercising and eating right and injecting Human Growth Hormone” may sound old-fashioned, but I think they’re correct.

health issues are a big chunk of the reason. but i’ve run into my fair share of people who believe, and it’s been expressed on this board, that even if steroids were safe and not against the rules that using them would be “wrong”. i’m at a loss to see why.

[gazpacho]

I agree with Varloz. It changes the game in a way that makes it less interesting to me if the athletic feats have a lot more to do with getting a good pharmacist than genuine talent. We could change the rules to allow pitchers to be replaced with pitching machines also but what is the point of that.

[Ramanujan]

@gazpacho

I agree with Varloz. It changes the game in a way that makes it less interesting to me if the athletic feats have a lot more to do with getting a good pharmacist than genuine talent. We could change the rules to allow pitchers to be replaced with pitching machines also but what is the point of that.

if we leveled the playing field physically, wouldn’t the most talented people then perform the best?

and isn’t athletics all about extending human physical achievement? it’s not like the use of steroids would eliminate the need to work one’s ass off to be the best at something.

[The_Raven_1]

@Ramanujan

it’s not like the use of steroids would eliminate the need to work one’s ass off to be the best at something.

Howyadoin,

That’s precisely what it’s about. Steroids, among other effects, give greater muscle-building results for a given amount of hours of exercise. They also reduce recovery time between workouts. If I’m a highly motivated athlete, and I’m working to my maximum potential, if compared to a juicehead performing the same exercise regimen, I’m gonna come out on the short end. The other guy is going to be the best, even though we worked equally hard. All because he used steroids, and I didn’t.
Well, what’s the solution? Taking steroids like the other guy? We already know that the physical and psychological effects of steroid use place the user at higher risk of many potential problems. If an adult, cognizant of the risks, wants to juice up so he looks more buff, whatever. To use it as a tool to cheat at sports is an affront to those who care enough about their life after sports to avoid the 'roid.

There is already a problem in many countries where young people are overtrained in an effort to “hit the sports lottery”. Add to this the unsupervised use of performance-enhancing substances, which in poorer countries are often veterinary supplements and the like, and the potential for catastrophe is clear.

-Rav

[Ramanujan]

@The_Raven

That’s precisely what it’s about. Steroids, among other effects, give greater muscle-building results for a given amount of hours of exercise. They also reduce recovery time between workouts. If I’m a highly motivated athlete, and I’m working to my maximum potential, if compared to a juicehead performing the same exercise regimen, I’m gonna come out on the short end. The other guy is going to be the best, even though we worked equally hard. All because he used steroids, and I didn’t.

Well, what’s the solution?

well, what’s the problem? then maybe we can work on a solution.

To use it as a tool to cheat at sports is an affront to those who care enough about their life after sports to avoid the 'roid.

if they were allowed, it wouldn’t be cheating.

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

“You had doubts, Grasshopper, about placing this thread in Great Debates?”

It is true, sir.

“Put your mind at ease. Your foresight has been shown to be most astute, Grasshopper.”

May I pat my own back now, sir?

“No, Grasshopper.”

Oh. But I think I just did, sir. Sorry.

[The_Raven_1]

@Ramanujan

well, what’s the problem? then maybe we can work on a solution.
if they were allowed, it wouldn’t be cheating.

If they were allowed, everyone would be forced to use something that will cause damaging effects to their body for the rest of their lives.

Suppose smoking was found to make you more intelligent. It was then decided by your employer that only smokers would get promotions, since they were more intelligent. The employer doesn’t give a damn about their employees keeling over one month after retirement, they want the maximum performance. OK, everybody light up! Cancer, schmancer, I’m gonna make the big bucks!
Here’s some info about the long term effects of steroid abuse:

http://espn.go.com/special/s/drugsandsports/steroids.html

http://www.drugfreesport.com/choices/drugs/steroids.html

and a quote from the latter article:

[quote]
Steroids overall, have a negative effect on the human body. Steroids only work to increase muscle and strength. They have absolutely no ability to enhance growth in either ligaments or tendons. When a subject begins steroid use, muscle size and strength do increase, but the strength and elasticity of the ligaments and tendons do not. As a direct result of the stronger muscle and new muscle, without stronger and newer tendons and ligaments, many side effects can occur. The lack of support on the soft tissue causes inflammation, muscle pulls, and muscle tears.

In addition to skeletal/muscular injuries that can occur, many other health risks are probable. Just to name a few: cardiac risk factors, hypertension, increased LDL/HDL ratio, strokes, elevated liver enzymes, hepatitis, liver tumors, decreased testosterone production, abnormal spermatogenesis, infertility, testicular cancer, altered menstruation, tendon degeneration, acne, male pattern baldness, increased facial/body hair (for woman), deepening of voice.

Oh yeah, baby! Gimme hepatitis, with a side order of abnormal spermatogenesis!

-Rav

[Neurotik]

@Troy McClure SF

Dude.

Hey, 3 is thoroughly impressive. I’m not saying he already wasn’t one of the best 3 position players of the 90s. But it’s a massive jump from 3 to 7. And those last 4 MVPs weren’t close, either.

I’m just trying to disprove Airman’s assertion that steroids probably only gave Bonds a “slight edge.”

[manhattan]

@Ramanujan

health issues are a big chunk of the reason. but i’ve run into my fair share of people who believe, and it’s been expressed on this board, that even if steroids were safe and not against the rules that using them would be “wrong”. i’m at a loss to see why.

But shouldn’t baseball react to that belief, or at least take it into consideration? You can’t smoke in the dugout (in fact, I think chewing tobacco is out too now, yes?). You can’t bet on sports, even on other sports and even in Vegas where it’s legal. You can’t cork your bat or spit on the baseball. As a profit-maximizing business which is image-conscious, doesn’t it make sense for them to also ban steroids? Particularly when that “image” is America’s Game[sup]TM[/sup], holding up the values of fair play and setting an examples for the kiddies? It seems to me that even apart from the health effects which you say could theoretically be removed, banning steroids is good business.

[furt]

As a libertarian, I fully agree with Airman’s stance on the legal status of drugs. But it’s not relevant. It’s not a legal question; it’s a commercial and ethical one.

It is as a fan of Major League Baseball, and a consumer of their product (used to be much more of one) that I object to steroids. When I watch a game, I want to see a battle of baseball skills; I do not want who has the best drug supplier to factor into the outcome. You can argue that steroids are just another kind of training; and you might be right. But for whatever reasons, more fans than not share my opinion. Not cracking down on drugs (as plausible deniability continues to erode) will further accelerate the decline of MLB’s popularity.

Related to that there is an ethical question. For good or bad, kids (even ones over 18) do look to athletes as role models. It’s sad, it’s wrong, but there it is. I have no doubt whatsoever that millions upon millions of young men would gladly be willing to risk death from cancer at age 50 if they thought it gave them a good chance at fame, glory and riches in the meantime. That’s their legal right; but it is not a message I want being sent to my kids or any others. I find it morally objectionable, as do most people.

And insofar as MLB wants my custom, and insofar as “baseball” wants to remain seen as a beloved wholesome pastime, and not go back to the quasi-shady, somewhat disreputable activity it was in it’s beginning (1860s - early 1900s), they damn well better respect the wishes of the fans to see a good clean game.
Not that I actually expect the colossal assholes that own the teams or run the MLBPA to understand this, of course, until their bottom lines are affected, by which time it will be too late.

[gazpacho]

@Ramanujan

if we leveled the playing field physically, wouldn’t the most talented people then perform the best?

and isn’t athletics all about extending human physical achievement? it’s not like the use of steroids would eliminate the need to work one’s ass off to be the best at something.

I don’t think that steroids are leveling the playing field. I think that they are moving up one notch. I also think that bulking people up with drugs lessens the human physical achievement and makes it more of a pharmaceutical achievement.

[Hampshire]

The “edge” these players have is completely unfair to players of the past who have set records to get into the Hall of Fame.
Funny how Babe Ruth’s homer record stayed concrete for decades then suddenly within the past 8 years we have McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds all right up there with him.
Yes, you need talent to play in the big leauges. However, players will do anything to turn from “MLB player” to “MLB Superstar” and the big money that comes along with it. It becomes especially tempting to them when they know baseball will look the other way on it. “Why should that guy be able to juice, make the big bucks, and no one ever questions it?”