JD, MPA, or MBA?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m about to enter my fifth year of teaching, and it will be my first at a traditional public school. It’s still here in Arizona, which isn’t where my wife and I want to be, but it’s a far better school than I’ve taught at in the past. Right now, I’m not at all sure I want to keep teaching. I love my career, but the money sucks, and it turns out that my idealistic 22-year-old self was wrong about how much that mattered – I’m about to turn 30, and I just feel like I have the potential to earn more money and a more comfortable lifestyle for my family.

With my degree in English with a minor in Political Science and a post-bacc teaching certificate, my options seem limited without returning to school. I’ve been reading threads here about grad school and law school, and I’ve been considering the advice given to other Dopers. I just need to hash some things out in text here, and maybe get some advice of my own.

My first love growing up was politics. My parents watch the evening news every night, and I grew up watching it with them and being interested in what was happening in the world. I volunteered for Congressman David Bonior when I was in high school and campaigned a little bit for Kerry in college. My favorite classes were Political Science classes, especially when I had to study the governments of East Asia. I became well-versed in the histories and contemporary issues of the Koreas, China, Taiwan, and Japan. Unfortunately, that knowledge is about seven years out of date now.

I’ve always wanted to go to law school. Another favorite class of mine was taught by a sitting federal judge and we reviewed SCOTUS cases involving criminal law. It’s probably the most useful law-related class I’ve taken, as I learned how to skim legal opinions for relevant facts and I learned how to respond if ever called upon by the police. I loved, loved, loved this class and it reinforced my desire to go to law school. The various threads here about law school have dissuaded me from going that route. I was a 3.3 GPA student in undergrad; I’m not sure I could be in the top 5-10% of a law school class, and therefore not sure if I could land a job that would offset the cost of the education and make my lifestyle more comfortable.

Getting a Master’s in Public Administration seems like a way to get into the political world that I love, but I’m not sure how useful the degree is. How does one get hired as a city manager (or other relevant position) after getting the degree? Also, I’m a registered Democrat in Arizona. My political prospects are almost nil out here. While I’d love to move back to the Midwest, I’m not sure if this degree would make that possible or likely. Again, I also don’t know exactly what this degree would do for me.
The last option is pursuing an MBA. Arizona State has a well-regarded program, whether I do it online, part-time, or full-time. University of North Carolina has an online program that also looks good and would be accessible to me while I continue teaching. However, I again don’t know what a person actually does with an MBA. I know it’s typically a gateway to higher pay, but I haven’t taken any business classes beyond Marketing 101 and Management 101 during my first year of community college, and that was 12 years ago!

I’m stuck. Getting the JD is the most appealing option to me. I love law; I love reading it, arguing about it, and explaining it to others. I find the legal world fascinating, but I’m worried that it’s a terrible option in today’s environment. It seems like LegalZoom and RocketLaw have made lawyers obsolete for many things outside of criminal and family law. I’d hate to be an ambulance chaser; Ideally, I’d like to stick with public service in some way.

The MPA sounds interesting when I read the description of the program at ASU, but I’m worried about the real-world application of the degree. The MBA is the most useful, but I’m not certain I’d make a good business person. I’m pretty liberal, and I have a hard time doing things that I know will negatively affect others. It seems like with this degree I’d have the highest likelihood of having to do so.

So Dopers, what advice can you give me?

2

Studying law and practicing law are two very different things. It is pretty much nothing like what you see on TV. Public Service is a good thing to do, but it can come at a terrible price–financially and emotionally–depending on what sort of job you eventually land. There is an overwhelming need for lawyers to represent people unable to pay for representation in very serious cases–domestic violence, custody, divorce, public benefits, housing, predatory lending–but LSC funded programs are struggling nationwide right now. The recent budget cuts at the federal level are pretty much crippling my program. I’m going to have to fight to try to keep my office open–we are currently slated for closure due to a large budget deficit.

My honest opinion is that going to law school with the hope of working in a non-profit/public interest role is not a good idea financially.

3

Yup. I have an MPA, and was in city management for several years because of it. There are few jobs where your political affiliation is going to matter - as long as the position isn’t an appointment position, you’ll be fine. And most MPA programs are going to require an internship somewhere. The only one on staff with a JD is the guy who didn’t pass the bar.

And depending on what political aspirations you have, even an MPA may not be all that useful (in the short term, at least). 2012 looms - there are going to be plenty of volunteer positions opening up. I know plenty of people without a post-secondary degree that have worked their way up the political ladder. It may even be an asset, as there isn’t any pressure on the higher-ups to “pay for a masters degree” on staff or not take you on for fear of actually having someone overqualified around (I honestly don’t understand that - if I want Position A and feel that’s a great fit, who the fuck cares if I’m overqualified?).

4

As Oakminster points out, public service legal careers are not the ones with the big paychecks. Top 5-10% is important as it provides an entree to the large national and multinational law firms (known as Biglaw) who represent large national and multinational business concerns. Practice areas at these firms (Wachtell or Skadden or Cravath, for instance) do not include family law or non-white-collar criminal defense (and white-collar criminal defense is not usually thought of as a public service field). Incidentally, nobody is doing M&A or international tax or structured finance work with RocketLaw forms.

For someone who purports to want to do public service, I’m confused why you call it ambulance chasing. Do wrongfully injured people not deserve compensation from stonewalling insurers? Or is that you think the practice of law will protect you from having to do anything so vulgar as “commerce”? Law, after all, is a business.

Legal Services Corporation (which funds many of the legal aid organizations throughout the United States) is not a business. But it also represents the lowest legal salaries, and as Oakminster also points out, is a lot more famine than feast these days. Advocacy groups, like the ACLU, pay decently well but jobs with them are ultra-competitive and typically go to alumni of Biglaw with sterling credentials.

5

I think I chose my words poorly. I have no qualms with representing people who have been wronged; I do have an issue with turning myself into a publicity whore. I’d hate, in 20 years, to be the guy with the stupid commercials on TV about car accidents. I’d hate to be as big of an asshole as Geoffry Fieger of Michigan supposedly is. I’m not sure I have it in me to be “that kind” of lawyer, whatever that is.

I’d have no problem being a defense attorney, whether public or private. Hell, I think people frequently need help defending themselves from the police/judicial system.

I also have no problem with “commerce”, nor do I find it “vulgar” and I don’t see where I implied as such. I simply don’t like taking advantage of others. When I worked retail, I hated upselling expensive electronic cables to people; it seemed wrong to charge so much for something that I knew had no benefit over a cheaper product.

All of you give good advice. Oak, I’ve read all of your comments in the threads relating to this and they’ve stuck with me. Law school seems like the worst option for future employment (yet probably no worse than teaching). I’m still not sure what someone really does with an MPA or MBA. Munch, can you help me out a bit with a description of what I could use an MPA for?

6

Well, you’ve got two more undergrad business classes under your belt than I did, and I’m about half way to my MBA.

What do you think makes a good “business person?” Getting an MBA certainly doesn’t mean you’ll be a top executive in Corporate America, ripping of every Tom, Dick and Harry who crosses your path. Most MBA programs have an area of emphasis (I know ASU does, I have a friend there) and some may aven have a non-profit emphasis if that’s what interests you. Granted, that could narrow your career options a bit.

I chose the MBA over other graduate degree options because, quite frankly, it seemed the easiest. It’s also pretty useful in my field.

7

That might not be a huge concern; it depends on why your college GPA was low. I had a couple of friends in law school with undergrad GPAs worse than that who did fine. If it’s because you were unmotivated or unfocused or something, that can change. However, being realistic about ranking in the top 10% is a good thing to do regardless of your undergrad GPA.

This is where you should know what you’re getting into - law school (and law practice, unless you’re lucky enough to do appellate law) is not going to be like your freshman Philosophy of Law seminar where you can think and laugh and debate and everyone gets an A for participating. It’s more like a combination of the drudgery of factory work plus the ass-bustingness of boot camp, all while your classmates are fervently hoping you die if you rank above them.

8

This is the only thing I will say.

if you can score highly enough on the LSAT to get a tuition waiver at a mid-grade law school (#50-100) then you should consider it. They do require that you maintain a GPA that places you in the top 25% which can be stressful, but you have to do that anyway. My first year’s tuition waiver was 75% - when I finished in the top 10% they threw a retention bonus at me and it went up to about 85%.

Taking a position at a somewhat lower ranked but regionally known school seemed like a smart decision for me in 2006 because I was interested in public sector law; in 2009 I looked like a freaking genius.

I’m an attorney for a municipal government and I’ll have my loans completely paid off by my second year of practice. My entire debt for three years was less than one semester at full price.

I would still strongly advise against anyone paying “rack rate” for law school at this time.

9

I have some issues with the way my program was set up - it was far too broad and diverse for any grad program to be. We had future city planners, heath administrators, non-profit managers, law enforcement officers/administrators, fundraisers and other quasi-governmental types.

In the non-profit realm, it’s going to be functionally equivalent to an MBA. An MBA is obviously more valuable, because it’s far more transferable to the business world. Non-profit world doesn’t get as much respect as it deserves, but it has an admittedly much lower ceiling of possibility than business world.

For public policy and everything that entails, you can focus on anything from public finance (tax credits! TIFs! community development corporations! Oh my!), to things like working in the department of public ________ (health, works, parks, transportation, etc.), to lobbying, etc.

Then there’s the criminal justice branches that many schools don’t include, and some weird health administration program that’s not an MHA for some reason, etc. If you have time, I’d recommend just calling up the nearest MPA program and ask to talk to someone in the dean’s office who can give you their best pitch.

10

I would suggest you find out what MBAs do from people other than coffeehouse weirdos ranting about “the man” and “Evil Capitalists”.

It depends what you mean by “negatively affect others”. It’s not like I (an MBA) work in some MegaGigantacorp in their Bio-Weapons and Weather Machine Division. “Business” is ultimately about buying and selling products and services that other people want and need and the operations behind making those services happen.

11

I’ve got the JD. I love practicing law. When people say they want to go to law school, my advice for them is do it if they have a burning desire and must do it. In my opinion it is not a path for those who think it might be a good idea.

12

If I were you I’d take the LSAT. Your score on that should clear things up for you. (However, as it turns out, I essentially got a B on the LSAT in percentile terms and am now a partner at a top Biglaw firm, so the LSAT isn’t absolutely the end-all be-all.)

13

Assuming you mean criminal defense, I have to ask…really? Really?

Are you prepared to cross examine a 10 year old rape victim? I did that exactly once. I will never forget the look that child’s mother gave me. I still have nightmares about that case and it was 10 years ago.

Are you ready to deal with criminals on a daily basis? Including some that are not very good sports about losing a fair trial?

Could you zealously defend a Jeffrey Dahmer, or an Osama bin Laden?

I’m not trying to rain on your parade, but these are things you really need to give serious consideration before your commit the time and resources to law school.

14

This is somewhat disappointing. :wink:

I think you’re touching on my biggest issue. I’m an English teacher at a high school. Most of my friends are teachers or otherwise work in education. I know one lawyer who hates her job, but she went to law school because it seemed like a good idea, not because she had any interest in law. I know a few people who work in sales, but I have a wife and daughter, so commission-only work would be hard to justify. I know a ton of engineers, but that’s not very interesting to me.

I simply don’t know what an MBA qualifies one to do. ASU has a specialty in Supply-Chain/Logistics - that sounds interesting to me on the surface, but I’m not sure what the practical application is. I do know that when I worked retail, merchandise flow was the most interesting job I did and I tried to learn as much as possible about those systems and processes. The concept of JIT shipping is also nerdily fascinating to me. I’m assuming an MBA with that specialty would prepare me to implement and improve such systems and processes.

Does anyone have good, reliable links that explain what people actually do with MBA’s?

I’m trying to put a lot of research and thought into this next step. I went into education because my mom worked as a paraprofessional at a special-needs school, so I had a lot of exposure to teachers and the education system. I wanted to become a college professor when I was just out of undergrad, but that seems kind of stupid and like a bad ROI now that I have a family to support.

As to the advice of Rand Rover, I’m planning on taking the LSAT in October of this year. I’ll probably take the GMAT as well to keep my options open.

Again, thanks for the great discussion so far. Oak, you brought up the negative side of criminal defense that I always, always, always put out of my mind. I’m glad you were there to bring that back up; I might not have the personality to vigorously defend a serial killer, and lack of a vigorous defense can lead to an easier appeal. That probably isn’t for me. There are areas of law that would be a good fit for me - I just haven’t done all of the legwork to really nail them down before committing to something like law school.

15

The obligatory links on how law school is mostly not worth it nowadays: http://jdscam.blogspot.com/
http://www.qfora.com/jdu/

While law school may pay off for some, personally I don’t think it’s worth the risk when you are already worried about finances.

16

The public, that is those that have not dealt with the justice system in general and the criminal justice system in particular are under the impression that many, many, many innocent people are accused of crimes. It certainly happens, and those cases get enormous press. But as a practical matter, most lawyers are going to represent people who actually committed most of the acts with which they are charged and maybe once or twice in a career deal with an accused who has been utterly wrongly accused. In the meantime, they will have to represent very not nice people for years on end with no break. It is why I do no criminal work.

17

Oh good, someone linked to a butthurt whiner lamenting the fact that there’s no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow when you graduate from the bottom of the class at a low-ranked school. Hard to find those folks these days.

18

Oh good, Rand Rover threadshitting in a thread that mentions lawyers or law school. How surprising. Moving on…

19

Yes, those folks will, after they die, make such low class worm food that we, the more fortunate, should get a head start on despising them for it now. Talented lawyers are buried 8 feet down, not 6 feet like mere mortals, because deep down lawyers are really good. After we are all dead, we will never again have the opportunity to point out how superior we are. Seriously, do you ever give a rest to your “I’m so superior” routine?

20

I know ASU has a great reputation for their MBA with an emphasis on supply chain management. If you’re interested in that, the wiki articleis actually pretty detailed.

I’m focusing on a leadership MBA because I think it’s generic enough that I can apply to any field. I’m an engineer, but I’m getting more and more into management. The MBA is going to be crucial for me to reach top management.

As an anecdote related to law, I have two friends to went to law school. One eventually dropped out, is still paying back the massive debt he accumulated and struggles to find a steady job with his poly sci degree. The other practices employment law and seems very satisfied with it.