I’m reading Barack Obama’s autobiography, and I’m curious about the experiences people have had in Law school, and the careers it has led them too. My best friend is in law school as well and is nearing graduation. I’m just curious about the profession, the life, and what your thoughts about it are. I know there are a wide range of fields to be employed in, any discussion is welcome.
My dad’s a lawyer. I knew at a very young age that I never would be. I find it continually amazing that so many of my friends are lawyers/want to be lawyers. My dad hated it so much that he quit years ago (although he is still a member of the state bar so he’s still an attorney at law) and is now a legal editor. He updates and writes articles in law books.
IMHO, being a lawyer looks like the worst job in the world. (I feel a little tempted to go to law school every time I walk through the Michigan Law School quad, though. It might be worth it to hang out there for three years…
…okay, not really.)
I’ve recently finished law school. It was a career change for me, as I returned for a law degree when I was in my 40s. But it wasn’t a difficult decision for me to return to school, as I had always wanted to be a lawyer, and the desire never waned, even though I did a number of other things in the interim. And as a piece of advice I got here on the SDMB told me, I would be better off as a “mature” law student, since I had life experience and still, really wanted to be there. As opposed, for example, to those who were killing time, reluctant to leave academia, or whose parents insisted.
It was good advice. I had heard about “lawyer burnout,” and I suppose it’s true enough. Many of my classmates (who were, naturally, much younger than me) had never done anything in their lives except school and summer jobs. They had no idea what the business world was like, much less what the law world was like. I didn’t know about the latter, but I sure knew about the former. At any rate, they went from a couple of classes a day and self-directed private study (or beer drinking) to being told what to do, what to wear, when to show up and when to leave, in the blink of an eye. Of course, nobody wants to give the impression that they cannot keep up, so they take on anything and everything, meaning they’re working insane hours. Most I’ve spoken with, I’m happy to say, have adjusted, but some I’m not so sure about. If they keep going as they are, they will be among the lawyers who burn out in a short period of time, I think.
As for “law careers,” I have no idea what I’ll end up doing. I had a great time in our school’s legal clinic’s criminal law division defending minor lawbreakers. Criminal law seemed a possibility. But now, I’m in a law firm that doesn’t do any criminal work–but we do (among many other things), employment law, and I’m finding that my past employment experiences are desirable to the firm. Yes, I did study employment law at school; but I also worked many places, was laid off, dealt with many employment contracts of various types, and generally saw first-hand most of what an employment lawyer would encounter. The firm likes this experience. I’m glad I had it. Employment law is, I admit, interesting.
I don’t know–we’ll have to see. For now, I’ve got the bar courses and my everyday tasks to deal with at work. Those are keeping me busy, and I really have to keep on track with the bar courses. If all goes well, I’ll be fully qualified in less than a year. Wish me luck!
I went to law school straight out of my B.A. I hadn’t had a burning ambition all my life to be a lawyer, but it was always one of the options, and family and friends weren’t surprised when I went to law school.
I had a blast at law school. I fell in with a good group of fellow students, I enjoyed my classes, and I found it intellectually very challenging.
That was in the mid-80s. I’ve been involved in the law ever since, either as grad student, articling student, or lawyer. When I went to law school, I assumed that I wouldn’t do litigation because I wouldn’t like the stress. To my great surprise, I found I liked litigation, particularly appellate advocacy. Yes, it’s stressful, but it’s also fun. There’s nothing I like better than a good duel with opposing counsel in front of an engaged judge.
I’ve had friends who left the active practice of law, and I respect their choice, but I can’t see myself leaving any time soon. I’m having too much fun!
The study of law is sublime, it’s practice is base. (some random quote)
It was fun to study, I really enjoyed that part of it, and did well routinely getting top of the class results. As a practitioner, it can be a very hard slog. There are many type-A personalities that you will be competing with. This depends on what area of law you go into, of course. I’m in IP which, for me is a bit of an oasis - a nice blend of science, art and law. Many of my friends went into government jobs, or into positions at large companies that weren’t strictly “law jobs”. A few stuck it out in “real law” jobs, and are now barristers etc. To succeed in those “pure law” jobs, you really have to love the law, there is no other option and you can’t fake it.
Spoons, what is it like fresh out of law school as a mature student. I assume the movie presentation of new grads as working 16 hours days (or 12, anyway) to be somewhat common (though that may be wrong). I’ve always had an itch to return to law school, but thinking I’d have to work those kinds of hours is one main nix for me. Thoughts?
No, if my discussions with my classmates is anything to go by, you’re not far off. They do work insane hours, such as you describe, although 16 hours may be pushing it. Still, 12 hours might be closer to the norm.
I’ll state right now that I don’t do those kind of hours as a rule–I do more like eight or nine daily. Partly, it’s for a few reasons:
– My firm knows my age and experience, and knows that I’ve done insane hours as part of past jobs. They know I’m capable of such things if they become necessary. But they also know that I’m … well, experienced in the ways of work. They may think that I can see through “mindless busywork,” or they may feel that with my business experience, it’s more important to use that to get me working on some things than others. Certainly, if their informal coffee room remarks are anything to go by, I have brought a different perspective to the task than most fresh and inexperienced law students this firm has hired.
– My previous career was that of technical writer. Basically, I wrote instruction manuals for a living. I also taught writing skills at a local college. I wrote professionally, in other words. So legal research assignments are a no-brainer for me; I’ve researched and knocked off 3500 word written answers to legal questions in a day. This is where I have an advantage over my younger colleagues–with all due respect to them and their skills, while we may all research at the same rate, they don’t know how to write fast. Needless to say, this means I can draft a research memo fast–and get out of the office sooner.
– Because of my business experience, which my classmates don’t have, I’m not afraid to talk back. Now, that might normally be a bad thing at any job, but it has happened once or twice where the partners have seen that maybe I have a point–that, for example, if Partner X has a rush job that he needs by the end of the day and I’m working on it, then I really shouldn’t be interrupted with “cold calls” from people who have a basic legal question or with people who need to swear an affidavit for some reason (I don’t know about your jurisdiction, but in mine, even as a student-at-law, I can take an oath on a document). The partners are reasonable, and seem to trust me to know when I’m getting swamped. And again, they are aware of my previous business experience, so they know when I say, “I’m swamped,” I’m not kidding. This may be more the firm I work at, though. At any rate, speaking up has meant I’m out of the office at a reasonable hour.
– I will admit that a lot of civil procedure leaves me stumped. Yes, I took Civ Pro at school, but that didn’t prepare me for the vast amount of paper that must be drafted, sworn, filed, and spoken to somehow at court. As a private citizen, it was easy to think, “Well, if necessary, I’ll sue him,” but as a student-at-law, I find that such a simple decision to sue creates a lot of work. Not that I mind, but trying to figure out what gets drafted and filed first, what and who gets served with documents, and what one should say in court on the day agreed upon, leaves me confused. I like it–I actually like speaking in court and talking with the judge–but the paperwork needed to get there is confusing and not my favourite thing. IMHO, this kind of paperwork takes a lot of the time you were wondering about.
Overall, I’d suggest that if law interests you, that you look into it. No harm done, nor obligation made, by getting in touch with the law schools you’d like to apply to, and see what they need from you in terms of an application. You will need to write the LSAT for admission to a law school in the US or Canada, so you can look into that as well. I hope I’ve given you some food for thought, anyway.
Aside to Northern Piper: So how do I convince my firm that I really ought to be drafting facta and doing appellate advocacy? 
lose a few cases in chambers and seek instructions to appeal. 
an appellate practice develops over time. you have to get comfortable in an area of the law to justify being the one who takes it on appeal. you also have to show to the higher-ups in the firm that you’ve got the combination of the knowledge of the law and the written advocacy skills.
Thanks for that, Spoons. I imagine I’ll keep thinking about it for a while, as I’m just not sure I’m ready to stop working for 3 years to go to school again. And while I know I’d love to study law, I’m not sure that I want to be a lawyer.
One of the key points to remember is that an ability to do law will take you places but to get to the top you will probably have to be able to sell.
Salesmen rule the world.
If you are in private practice, up to a certain point you will be expected only to practice law. In many parts of the law, you will quite likely hit a ceiling unless you control a client base. Unless you inherit one, getting a client base means having an ability to market, network and sell.
I think there are two main problems with law school:
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Law school and medical school are the only two grad programs where they teach by the cattle method (i.e. Shove as many people into a classroom as they can). In my opinion, however, law school tends to have a higher proportion of students who couldn’t figure anything else to do with their life and so decided to “fall back” on becoming a lawyer. Getting into grad school programs with 5 people in the entire class is HARD. Not as difficult to do so when your class size is 250. So when you go in with a bunch of students who aren’t dedicated, you end up with a bunch of people who STILL don’t know what they want to do with their life but can at least put Esq. behind their name.
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Law school doesn’t teach you how to practice law. I’ve read law review articles from the begining of the 20th century on this complaint, so I highly doubt it’s going to be rectified soon. But when I graduated law school I was lucky to know how to find the damn courthouse and if you’d asked me to file a brief with them I’d have been completely lost. We learn theory. And theory is great and has its place. But every person who goes through law school should have at LEAST one mandatory year of interning (again, like medicine) before they can graduate. There need to be courses on applicable real world skills and that’s not just done.
I have always felt that going to law school would benefit anyone who had the slightest interest- it’s an absolutely fantastic education. The study of law is so interesting and provides such a helpful perspective on why the world works the way it does. Its historically interesting and mentally challenging, but so rewarding.
The practice of law is quite different. I had enough internships in private practice to confirm that I never wanted to make my living that way. Instead, I became an in-house lawyer and have never regretted it. The only 12-16-hour days I ever worked were during in the 7 years I worked between college and law school. It is possible to have a normal life as a corporate counsel.
I had a pretty good experience in law school. I had a very negative experience practicing law. It would be easier to respond if the OP if the questions were a little more specific.
My general advice is not to go into huge debt for law school unless you’re certain that you want to go into a highly paid big law firm career.
I had a good experience with law school but I’m fairly bored with working as an attorney. I plan to leave for my MBA, after which I’m thinking going into either marketing/advertising or doing something like working as a retail broker/private wealth management or product specialisation sales. Or I may decide to run a non-profit. I’m keeping my options open and thinking about things.
I’m of 2 minds about the whole thing. I actually think the legal training will make me pretty competitive for my MBA, not to mention that for once I get to be the “weird” candidate (years of public service and I’m in the throes of the housing crisis right now). OTOH, I sometimes feel like I wasted 7 years of my life (3 in law school, 4 years of work by the time I leave it). Though, I guess I wasted it more productively than most people waste their time.
i find this question interesting. I’m about to get my undergraduate in accounting, I’m looking at grad school and I’ve found a few that offer a joint JD/MBA. I loved studying business law and I’ve been thinking about those programs, but I wonder what kind of job market I’d be looking at if I did.
A search of the many similar threads in the past will reveal my views on law as a field of study/career.
It is a job like any other - nothing more or less. If you want to be a lawyer, you have no choice but to go to law school. If you do not have a strong urge to be a lawyer, do something else that you do want to do. There are so many LAS majors in law school simply because they don’t know what else to do with their useless bachelor’s.
There are TONS of lawyers out there competing for every job. In the majority of cases, you will end up with the job that is offered to you, rather than the one you want.
I have an extremely low opinion of how law is taught in the US. IMO should be - at most - 1 year of classroom followed by 1-2 years of clinical experience. Some folks enjoy law school - I found it a boring waste. But it was the required ticket into the game…
I found working for a private firm incredible bullshit, whatever the pay. You are nothing but an expendible income-producing asset. Working for the gov’t is a fine gig. But as I said, it is just a job.
I found undergrad to be a whole lot easier than law school. “Competitive” is a completely different animal in law school. As far as intellectual pursuits go, I believe law school is the best, but it doesn’t teach you anything practical. You will have to find out how to do that yourself. All law schools have practical in-school clinics of sorts, but, imo (especially straddled with huge law school debt) that is neither the practice you want nor the clients you want.
I also used to work for a large firm client. I summered there as a 2L and was completely dismayed at how actually working there was so much more depressing than clerking there. You’re nothing but a cog in a machine, a well-paid cog, but a cog nonetheless. Large firms are no strangers to office politics and other bullshit. It also became increasing clear that in order to do well (i.e. make partner) in the large law arena one would have to sell, sell, sell, and all it gets you is a bigger pair of golden handcuffs. “Minders” (people who are gurus in an area of law), while respected, are actually not preferred. “Grinders” (people willing to work 65+ hrs/week) are a dime a dozen and are fodder to actually be churned out of a firm.
After three years, I went to work for a very large, multi-national global corporation, that actually retains my old firm (though, not my practice area). I was dismayed at the salary reduction, and after 7 years, I’m finally making what I would make as a senior associate (one up for partner). However, I only work anywhere between 35-45 hrs/week (closer to 35, which allows me to be here on the Dope), and can schedule any one of my 5 weeks of vacation whenever I want. I’ll probably never make GC, but that’s ok.
When practicing with the large firms, there is also huge competition to be the best, bill the most hours, wrangle the best clients, and garner respect from your peers (publishing articles, holding seminars, getting your name out, etc.). Surprisingly, it’s something that I miss. It’s tough to do in-house as all my friends still at firms are constantly trying to sell me business. It’s hard to run a seminar and have to decline business (which is why I opened up a small side firm). Instead, I deal with pushy salespeople and pushy vendors who don’t who look at contracts as a roadblock.
JD/MBA is a great combo, or so I hear from the executives I deal with. However, the MBA part is something I feel shouldn’t be had until much later, when one has more business experience. Also, one shouldn’t pay for it. There are a good many threads and articles out on the net discussing the value of the MBA. My company offers to pay for it, but I have a lot on my plate already. Plus, it’s hard to adjust to something outside the in-house role. Basically, some business unit is going to have to create a role for you as you transition away from pure legal. If you’re lucky, the company (like mine) will have some sort of “junior executive program” (names for this vary, but essentially it’s a fast track to middle management) that you can qualify for.
I’ve been working in the legal field as a consultant for about 5 years now. Mostly advising clients on things like computer forensics, electronic discovery, forensic accounting, corporate litigation readiness strategy and so on. Which is just a fancy way of saying when companies get sued, I’m one of the experts lawyers hire to get at all the information they think will be important for their case and then help them to understand it.
A JD isn’t required, but a lot of my coworkers are attorneys or former attorneys. Most of us have backgrounds in technology, finance, accounting or business and work for consulting or professional services firms like Alix Partners, Deloitte, Ernst & Young, FTI, Huron, KPMG, Kroll, LECG, Navigant, and PWC. A lot of people in the field also come out of law enforcement, intelligence or government regulatory agencies.
There are also a lot of technology firms that specialize in software utilized by the legal industry - Autonomy, Dataflight, Epiq, Guidance, etc. A lot of lawyers go to work for those companies in marketing or sales.
IMHO it’s one of those jobs that sounds a lot more exciting than it actually is. When I describe it, it sounds like a cross between James Bond, Hackers and Erin Brockovich. In reality, it’s more like Office Space or a glorified Kinkos. Probably because being an attorney is more like Mitch from Old School than Michael Clayton.
I have to say that I find attorneys, taken as a whole, to be both one of the most technologically backward professions as well as the worst business people. Business requires taking risks and being decisive. Lawyers do neither. Everything is deferred to a subordinate, escalated to a committee or just discussed ad nauseum into irrelevancy. The majority of corporate cases I’ve seen are usually settled and are less about brilliant arguments in front a judge or jury and more about who can generate the most paperwork and electronic data, driving costs up until one side decides it’s more cost effective just to settle.
Basically I have come to the conclusion that the entire legal profession is a drain on the economy. All it does is redistribute wealth from companies that actually make stuff to people who produce nothing but blame and bullshit.
My dad went to law school, hated it, became a lawyer, hated it, and is now very happily an author. I am sure this has clouded my opinion somewhat.
A number of my high school friends went through law school as well. One of them is no longer a lawyer. One of them finished law school and continued in academia so is saddled with a student debt he will likely never pay off. One of them is a lawyer but bored of it. I know someone who graduated from law school and couldn’t get a job, so she has to pay her law school debts with her office temp salary.
Of my friends, I only know one person who still loves being a lawyer, and she is a special case because:
- she got free tuition because of a family member on the faculty
- she is extremely smart, as in, she decided at the very last minute to write the LSAT and aced it anyway, and is the sort who rarely needs to study
- she nearly quit law school several times anyway, and
- she now has one of the very few jobs available in the field she loves (refugee law). She couldn’t work in this field if she had student debt (because the pay is shit - I don’t see how anybody works in non-profit law who isn’t independently wealthy). And if she couldn’t work in this field, she wouldn’t be a lawyer.
Having said that, of the LAWYERs whose services I have been required to use, I massively appreciate and adore them and am thrilled that they don’t feel the same way my friends did. My only problem with them is that there aren’t more of them. (If you don’t appreciate the need for amazing lawyers, try getting sued. Or, for that matter, making a refugee claim).
Bad lawyers suck, but good lawyers are worth their weight in … well … in an extremely valuable precious metal of some kind, more valuable than gold even.
Basically, if you’re sure you want it, and you’re sure it will be worth it, then do it and kick ass. If you’re not sure, it’s an awfully expensive (in terms of money, time, stress and life experience) risk to take.
I find threads like this fascinating; I am considering getting out of engineering in a couple of years and either getting an MBA or a JD. With my background in Pet. E I think environmental law would be interesting, but I always have to stop and think about the money I’ll be turning down to change careers. The more I learn about law school and what the daily life of lawyers of diverse backgrounds is like the better able to make my decision I’ll be. Luckily, I have 3-4 years to make that decision or until oil/natural gas crashes.