Pizzabrat, the ‘what you have now vs what you want to have’ distinction does not work. I can be jealous because my friend has a shiny new car.
I never said the words are precisely the same, I said they’re interchangeable. By that, I mean that any sentence with the word “envious” can have it replaced with the word “jealous” and the opposite is almost always true eg:
“I am envious because my friend has a new car” --> “I am jealous because my friend has a new car”
“The sight of Bob’s hot girlfriend filled Tim with jealousy” --> “The sight of Bob’s hot girlfriend filled Tim with envy”
It doesn’t always work the other way around when one is using the archaic additional meaning of “jealous”, for example in the famous conversation between Othello and Iago, you’re right about that. But this rarely comes up in conversation, so in almost every situation people use the words interchangably. That’s the nature of words - there’s rarely a perfect match, but there are usually synonyms that are matches for nearly all situations.
It’s a good thing the OP has the minority opinion on this, because if folks like him were in charge, language would never have developed past grunting and hitting each other with rocks.
Masonite, how far back in literary history are you talking? You pose a difficult task, as I have a difficult enough time remembering what day of the week it is, much less in which book on my shelves [or otherwise] I would find the word ‘jealous’ as synonymous with ‘envious;’ much less exactly where in the book. But really, do you think that dictionary editors would add the synonym note if the usage hadn’t begun to pop up with some regularity in literature? How else would they track such a thing?
trandallt; I should think that neither of them will wither and die because ‘jealousy’ has a primary meaning that is unique from ‘envious.’ And I should also have to contend that not every alteration to our language must be an absolute positive. Some changes are good and necessary; some may seem absolutely unnecessary from a practical standpoint. I agree that the shift of ‘jealous’ to mean, in some senses, exactly the same as ‘envious’ is rather unnecessary: ‘envious’ was doing a pretty good job holding its own, there. But I also recognise that the merge is there and that it cannot, at this point, be ignored and denied.
That’s a good point; presumably dictionary editors aren’t reading this thread as we speak. Because I was brought up on KJV, I see a sharp distinction of the words, but as we see in this thread, real people use them more or less interchangably. Still, I’d like to see respected authors using each word. Anybody up for a Shakespeare search? I’m not.
I’m of the opinion that there are NO real synonyms; otherwise one word or the other would drop out of use. Since we still commonly use both words, there must be a slight distinction. The distinction that works for me is, “jealousy” refers to something you’ve already got and want to maintain – like God and the Israelites. “Envy” refers to something you don’t have, and want, such as your neighbor’s wife or your neighbor’s ass. ( :D) Anybody up for bringing “covet” and “covetousness” into the discussion? In my mind, that would be a synonym for “envy” – evidenced by the fact that “covet” is practically archaic. “Envy” covers it completely.
Obviously I disagree with you that the primary meaning always obtains. But I think that the key issue is expressed in your final statement. Granted that some battles are lost, does that mean that we give up the fight? Words have the meanings we give them. If only you and I know the meanings do we have a language?
There’s no primary meaning of any word. “Jealous” has had the sense of protectiveness, especially in a love / lust sense, for many years. But the meaning of “jealous” that is synonymous with “envious” is equally old - heck, even Chaucer and Caxton used it. It is not a modern corruption of the word.
[QUOTE=The Oxford English Dictionary]
b. in respect of success or advantage: Apprehensive of losing some desired benefit through the rivalry of another; feeling ill-will towards another on account of some advantage or superiority which he possesses or may possess; grudging, envious. Const. of (the person, or the advantage).
c1385 CHAUCER L.G.W. Prol. 331 Ffor hate or for Ielous ymagynyng. c1477 CAXTON Jason 32 Alle were ialous of him. But Iason neuer thought on none of them. 1563 B. GOOGE Eglogs vii. (Arb.) 59 You iudge but of malicious hart, and of a Ialouse brayne. c1601 SIR C. HATTON in Hatton Corr. (Camden) 2 My many iealious observers prevent my presence. a1732 ATTERBURY Serm. Isa. xl. 22 (Seager) It is certain that they looked upon it with a jealous eye. 1838 THIRLWALL Greece xxiii. III. 289 Several of the leading persons in the state were jealous of his glory. 1897 Eng. Hist. Rev. Jan. 152 The Church was, as early as 1254, becoming jealous of the civil law.[/quote
lambchops, just to clarify my own use of primary: I simply meant that it was first in rank, as that meaning of jealousy is listed first in almost every dictionary.
And thank you for your cites. Chaucer would most definitely not have been the first place I’d have looked.
I hair split between envy and covet and jealousy in a different way.
I use ‘covet’ when I mean that someone wants the exact, specific item in question, meaning he’d like to take the whatever away from the guy who has it now. In contrast, ‘envy’ means they want another unit of whatever that item is, the original possessor can keep his copy.
Thus:
I envy my neighbor’s in-ground pool = I would be made happy if I had one installed myself, he can keep his with my blessing.
I covet my neighbor’s wife = I don’t just want a wife myself, I want that particular woman as my wife.
So I see envy as more benign than coveting, since to satisfy me I only have to gain something, the other person doesn’t have to lose it.
Jealousy is also like covet, in my usage, in that it posits a uniqueness to the object of the jealousy, so it’s necessarily a win/lose scenario. I can be envious that my sister has a great new boyfriend (and I’m left crying in my cheerios all by my lonesome) even if I don’t think that particular guy would would suit me, but I’d be jealous of her new boyfriend if I wanted to take that exact guy away from her.
I think this distinction – uniqueness, wanting to keep or take the exact person/thing away from someone else vs. merely wanting to have something essentially the same for yourself – is a more useful rule than objects vs. people. Because we mostly see people as unique, the ‘jealous’ word is more often the fitting one, but sometimes we see people as fungible role-fillers, in which case it’s envy. And, of course, some objects are necessarily unique, too:
I’m jealous that my neighbor owns the Hope diamond.
I’m envious that my neighbor has a pearl neclace.
I’m jealous that my sister is dating Brad Pitt.
I’m envious that my sister has a housecleaner.