Jesse Ventura was right to sue the estate of Chris Kyle

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Especially since the only “mainstream” politician he was happy to endorse in recent years was Ron Paul (who is hardly a libertarian, no matter what his supporters think.)

[Loach]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

In a civil defamation trial where the plaintiff is a public figure, there must be a showing of “actual malice” (a term of art which has almost nothing to do with ill will). This is an extremely high bar.

Off the top of my head, the only other public figure who has successfully sued for defamation in the US is Steve Wynn, who was accused of threatening to kill Joe Francis (the Girls Gone Wild guy). The only reason Wynn won was that Francis went on Good Morning America and repeated his claim during the trial.

The decision was not unanimous. It was 8-2. Probably a tactical error since the defense had to agree to the split decision. It should have been a hung jury.

@TriPolar

Jesse has witnesses that say that he didn’t say those things, nor was there an altercation with Kyle. As I recall, those defending Kyle weren’t very credible. I’m sure the defense presented their testimony in court.

For you and Shodan, this is what wikipedia says:

So the $1.345 million dollars was unjust enrichment, only $500,000 was defamation damages. Peoples opinions of his reputation aren’t really important here, he didn’t have a reputation based on facts for making the statement Kyle claims or being involved in any such confrontation. Kyle made those things up according to the court and the jury by preponderance of the evidence. Since Kyle’s statements were in fact part of the promotion of his book it’s reasonable to assume he was unjustly enriched.

None of the things you cite about him indicate the sentiments Kyle claimed, and again, the preponderance of evidence indicates no such confrontation ever occurred.

The defense called 7 SEALS and 7 civilians who either heard the comments, saw the punch or saw Ventura being helped off the ground. Not having seen the testimony I can not give an opinion on their credibility. I just know that several sources I was seeing reporting live as the trial progressed were shocked at the outcome. Granted, these were military blogs and not news sources. But I happened to be listening live when Kyle first revealed who he alluded to in the book. I had never heard of him before that day. I then also heard Janos deny it. I know who I found more credible.

[Loach]

@Ibn_Warraq

He’s more like Alex Jones than Michael Moore.

Certainly. Alex Jones is a kook and a windbag. Michael Moore is not as kooky. I don’t know if Janos was always that tinfoilhatty but he certainly is now. I’m not sure how much is an act.

[TriPolar]

@Loach

The defense called 7 SEALS and 7 civilians who either heard the comments, saw the punch or saw Ventura being helped off the ground. Not having seen the testimony I can not give an opinion on their credibility. I just know that several sources I was seeing reporting live as the trial progressed were shocked at the outcome. Granted, these were military blogs and not news sources. But I happened to be listening live when Kyle first revealed who he alluded to in the book. I had never heard of him before that day. I then also heard Janos deny it. I know who I found more credible.

I can only rely on the outcome of the case, I don’t know what details were provided at trial. News coverage hasn’t included much detail so I have to conclude that the witnesses for Kyle were not credible, or the jury was 80% idiots. I can’t say one is more likely than the other, but in the end the jury found for Ventura.

Just to be clear I’m not stating that this was the right thing for Jesse to do, he had a right to do it, I don’t see a clear reason that it was wrong for him to do, and he won the court case. If there’s some reasonable basis to say it was wrong for him to do I haven’t heard it yet.

[Loach]

@TriPolar

I can only rely on the outcome of the case, I don’t know what details were provided at trial. News coverage hasn’t included much detail so I have to conclude that the witnesses for Kyle were not credible, or the jury was 80% idiots. I can’t say one is more likely than the other, but in the end the jury found for Ventura.

Just to be clear I’m not stating that this was the right thing for Jesse to do, he had a right to do it, I don’t see a clear reason that it was wrong for him to do, and he won the court case. If there’s some reasonable basis to say it was wrong for him to do I haven’t heard it yet.

All I can say is that after hearing Kyle tell the story and hearing Ventura defend himself to Alex Jones before going off the grid in Mexico, I believe Kyle. I can’t say so with 100% certainty but I don’t have to.

For those interested, here is the first time Chris Kyle publicly stated it was Jesse Ventura that he talks about in the book. In the book the confrontation is mentioned but Ventura is not named.

[Martin_Hyde]

I probably wouldn’t rely on military blogs for much of anything. The searching I’ve done of actual news sources have all said things similar to this article:

So far, though, lawyers for Kyle have presented only one person who has sworn under oath that he saw Kyle punch Ventura. And Ventura’s lawyers have presented sworn statements from several people who said it never happened.

A journalist that was at the trial noted the Kyle lost credibility during it:

Afternoon testimony may have shifted some sympathy to Ventura’s side. In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go “flying” during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book “American Sniper.”

I also think the whole idea that Ventura got beat up by Chris Kyle to be nonsense, Jesse Venture also successfully sued WWE/WWF for $850,000 in the late 80s over a minor contract issue and I think may have been involved in lawsuits other than that as well. He’s a guy who is very comfortable suing people, why wouldn’t he sue Chris Kyle for hitting him? Jesse doesn’t seem like the type of guy who would have let being punched slide, he’d have gotten himself photographed and used those in a legal action against Kyle.

[handsomeharry]

@Martin_Hyde

This isn’t a topic that I imagine will garner much interest, but I’ve followed it some and a few things have stood out, two in specific:

1. The facts unambiguously make Chris Kyle out to be a liar who enriched himself based in part on a lie that severely defames a person who himself is a former Navy SEAL

2. Reaction to both the lawsuit and the verdict have almost universally condemned/bashed Ventura for his actions.

I’ll just link to the Wikipedia entry on the controversy.

A quick summary: Jesse Ventura is a former Governor of Minnesota, professional wrestler and actor who served in the Navy in the Vietnam War era as a member of a Underwater Demolitions Team. Most recognize these individuals lineally as “Navy SEALs” because UDTs were later disbanded and folded into the SEALs, and many UDT members fought in engagements identical to SEALs, including significant actions in WWII and the Vietnam War. Due to this, Ventura has frequently participated in SEAL gatherings and events. Ventura has also been a vocal anti-war critic and has bashed Bush era military adventurism.

Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL who acquired 160 confirmed kills serving in Iraq. He then retired and started a company that specialized in training for defense contractors and such, and wrote a book and signed a movie deal.

In his book, he claims at a SEAL gathering a celebrity says that “Navy SEALs deserve to die for fighting in unjust wars” (paraphrase), Kyle then claims to punch the guy out. In the publicity drive for the book, Kyle identifies the unnamed celebrity as Jesse Ventura.

Ventura sues Kyle, asserting that Kyle’s story is a fabrication and Kyle told the story to generate publicity for his book. During the litigation, a veteran Kyle was working with shot and killed Kyle. Ventura continued the litigation against Kyle’s estate, and won–in the amount of $1.8m.

My argument: All the evidence and the result of the court proceeding show Kyle’s story to be a lie. There is photographic evidence of Kyle and Ventura on good terms at the meeting in question, and there is no evidence of Ventura having been punched. He is on blood thinners and would have shown visible bruising, but despite photos that were taken in that time span he showed none. Not a single person other than Kyle would substantiate the story, and many in fact stated that during the entire time Kyle and Ventura were near one another no altercation or incident occurred.

Kyle made roughly $6m off of book royalties, and $500k off of the movie deal. Harper Collins libel insurance covered $500k of the settlement against Kyle’s estate, and further it covered all of the costs of the litigation itself. Meaning the estate had to factually pay $1.3m to Ventura. Ventura’s attorneys did not work on contingency, he had to pay them for every hour they worked and incurred substantial legal fees, in his words the lion’s share of the money is going solely to pay his costs in litigating to clear his name.

I think Ventura deserves no public condemnation for continuing the suit against Kyle’s estate, because Ventura was someone who was proud of his military service and while often critical of American military policy found it abhorrent that he was accused of wishing death on American soldiers. Kyle made money off of this lie, how much is impossible to say but the jury said $1.3m in improper enrichment. To me that money is no different than if Chris Kyle had robbed a bank of $2m and then been killed. No one would argue that just because Chris Kyle was a decorated veteran who died tragically and left behind a wife and children that his estate should be allowed to keep the $2m he stole. The money the jury ascertained he earned based on libeling Jesse Ventura was never properly his, and thus never should have been the estate’s money–no different than money from a bank robbery.

Word.

[handsomeharry]

@kaylasdad99

I dunno. He was veteran, and his then-wife was part of his family…

Did he say veterans of what?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Martin_Hyde

Jesse Venture also successfully sued WWE/WWF for $850,000 in the late 80s over a minor contract issue…

It was hardly a minor contract issue. WWF paid even its top performers peanuts at the time. $800k is probably more than Ventura earned in all his years doing commentary for WWF.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

In a civil defamation trial where the plaintiff is a public figure, there must be a showing of “actual malice” (a term of art which has almost nothing to do with ill will). This is an extremely high bar.

Off the top of my head, the only other public figure who has successfully sued for defamation in the US is Steve Wynn, who was accused of threatening to kill Joe Francis (the Girls Gone Wild guy). The only reason Wynn won was that Francis went on Good Morning America and repeated his claim during the trial.

I don’t think this addresses Loach’s point.

What you’re saying is that public figures have to prove that the slanderer knew or should have known that their statements were false. What Loach is saying is that they only have to prove this by preponderance of evidence.

In this case, the standard you refer to is irrelevant. Kyle was talking about something that he was personally involved in, so if you believed it was false then obviously Kyle knew it was false. (The standard comes into play when it’s newspapers repeating things they’ve heard from other sources.)

But the question is whether it’s an open-and-shut case that Kyle was lying. The fact that - as Loach points out - it’s a civil trial means that it’s not. If the jury (or 8 members of it) believed it’s slightly more likely than not that Kyle was lying, then they rule against him. That leaves plenty of room for other people following the case to disagree, and could explain some of the reaction.

[Martin_Hyde]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

It was hardly a minor contract issue. WWF paid even its top performers peanuts at the time. $800k is probably more than Ventura earned in all his years doing commentary for WWF.

Interesting, I had certainly never known all those details. $1,000 a week seems pretty low for a guy on television on a weekly broadcast with millions of viewers even in the 80s. I also find it interesting the court decision refers to Ventura’s acting career as “moderately successful.” He was in Predator and the Running Man!!

[TriPolar]

@Martin_Hyde

Interesting, I had certainly never known all those details. $1,000 a week seems pretty low for a guy on television on a weekly broadcast with millions of viewers even in the 80s. I also find it interesting the court decision refers to Ventura’s acting career as “moderately successful.” He was in Predator and the Running Man!!

Typical for that era. Wrestling pay was about to break open with Hulk Hogan and others, but $1000 a week for WWWF color commentary was a very good deal at the time.

[Mangosteen]

@Shodan

In addition to being a Truther, he also believes in a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

He’s made a lot of money off a couple of his lawsuits (not the one against the TSA), so no wonder he does it.

True story: When Jesse ran for governor, my wife was teaching remedial college math, and they got to talking about the election. Every single one of those who announced that they supported Jesse was earning a D or F in the course at the time.

Regards,
Shodan

In the latest Gallup Poll (2013) only 30% of the American people think Oswald acted alone to kill Kennedy. Over 60% agree with Jesse and think there was a conspiracy to kill him.

Majority in U.S. Still Believe JFK Killed in a Conspiracy

There is also a significant percentage of the American people who do not 100% believe the government’s version of the 9?11 attacks.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Martin_Hyde

Interesting, I had certainly never known all those details. $1,000 a week seems pretty low for a guy on television on a weekly broadcast with millions of viewers even in the 80s. I also find it interesting the court decision refers to Ventura’s acting career as “moderately successful.” He was in Predator and the Running Man!!

It’s important to remember that there was nowhere else to go at the time. The NWA had minimal national TV presence, so their commentators were paid even less. The only time in history that wrestlers have been well paid is the Monday Night Wars and the years that followed (though salaries are now stagnant or dropping because Vince is the only game in town again.) When WCW was poaching all his top talent, Vince had no choice but to offer bigger bucks to the guys he had left, and later more creative pay structures.

[Razncain]

Was scanning CNN today, and besides the JV story that Chris Kyle evidently made up, here’s a few more whoppers that nobody else can verify about his claims either.

In the video link, it says that on a stretch of highway, south of Dallas, he claims two men tried to hijack him, to which he reaches in to get a gun and shoots them both dead. He also claims there was video of it.

He also claims with a friend to have snuck into New Orleans and sniped out 30 armed looters after hurricane Katrina.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

… from the top of the Superdome. At this point, I think we have to wonder if the Chris Kyle who wrote the book is actually the same guy who served as a US sniper.

[chargerrich]

Win or Lose, Right or Wrong, Ventura is still a loon, WTC 9/11 “truther” who is VERY unlikeable in everything he has done since “I got no time to bleed”

[Loach]

@chargerrich

Win or Lose, Right or Wrong, Ventura is still a loon, WTC 9/11 “truther” who is VERY unlikeable in everything he has done since “I got no time to bleed”

As part of the lawsuit they had to prove that harm was done to Ventura’s reputation. I don’t know how it was presented in court but one of the lawyers stated that nothing Kyle said could possibly have damaged Ventura"s reputation as much as Ventura did before the book came out. I’d have to agree. Unless there are videos of Ventura drowning puppies I couldn’t possibly think less of him than I did before I ever heard of Chris Kyle.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Ventura was able to prove that he lost some speaking fees as a result of the allegations. At least one of the cancelled engagements was a veterans’ group.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Loach

As part of the lawsuit they had to prove that harm was done to Ventura’s reputation. I don’t know how it was presented in court but one of the lawyers stated that nothing Kyle said could possibly have damaged Ventura"s reputation as much as Ventura did before the book came out. I’d have to agree. Unless there are videos of Ventura drowning puppies I couldn’t possibly think less of him than I did before I ever heard of Chris Kyle.

I think Kyle sniped the puppies before Jessie had a chance to drown them.