Well, since you’re talking about Jesus, we can restrict the premises to be about the Christian understanding of God.
Though I am Mormon, there are a few things that just about every Christian can agree on. Namely, [ul][li]God knows all.[]There is an afterlife. Death is not the end of existence, and our reward in the afterlife is tied to how we lived our mortal life.[]Hi Opal.[/ul] Given those simple premises, your statement about “needless killing” being a problem begs the question. How can you know it is needless? After all, God knows what is needful and what isn’t, but you can’t make such claims (although you could make an argument as to why you think something is needful or not). Furthermore, if death isn’t the end, and we’ll receive equitable judgement, why then is there a problem with God killing anyone?[/li]
That is what I mean about taking the premise seriously. Another way to put it is that you won’t be debating with anyone but yourself if you adhere to your strawman.
Look, Lolo, when you say, “I’m not impressed by Jesus,” you are implicitly talking about - well - Jesus. To step back now and say that your failure to be impressed by Jesus stems from the wrath of the Allmighty as told in the Old Testament is not useful.
Again, I point out that your OP could have been titled differently: “Old Yesyament: Why is ‘God’ so pissed?” or “The Old Testament version of ‘God’ doesn’t impress me.”
Why didn’t you post something like that?
Or is your point more subtle? Are you saying, “Jesus doesn’t impress me, because as much as he preached peace and understanding, if he was truly divine, then he was a hypocrite - look at all the needless killing in the Old Testament!”
Look here - I can’t construct your arguments for you. Why should I speculate in an effort to frame a proper inquiry for you? If you like one I’ve done aboce, adopt it, and we’ll talk. Or frame your own - correctly and honestly.
First I want to thank AHunter3 for his wonderful summation.
Second I want to thank most of the rest of you for representing a microcosm of all the reasons I loathe most organized religion - arguments over semantics and detail.
I, on the other hand, am very impressed with you. You have stated your case lucidly. You have drawn a careful chain of reasoning from your initial axioms, through a logical series of implications, to a compelling conclusion. And you’ve done it all with style, wit, and class.
Sounds like that was your goal. Why would you come out and gloat over that?
BTW, why shit on people’s beliefs? If any holy-roller ever got in your face so bad you wanted to punch them, hey man, I sypathize. It’s happened to me, and a lot of us here, I’m sure. In-your-face witnessing is not very many Christians’ cup of tea, believe me. I think it blows, too, and is disrespectful of your right to believe whatever you do.
But if that ever happened to you, that’s no reason to shit on other people’s beliefs. Don’t take it out on the mass of Christians you come across on this board. Most of us can respect your beliefs (I hope we can, all!). Surely, you can avoid such an insulting topic as this.
Three questions, some of which have been asked before:
Are you talking about Jesus himself, the Christian religion, God, or the Bible? At one time or another you seem to have mushed one or more of these together. Your OP indicated that it was Jesus himself that you were talking about. Is that right?
Can you offer any historical figure that you are “impressed” with and why?
Specifically what is it about Jesus that doesn’t impress you? What could he have done or not done to have impressed you?
I’m sorry if I sound like a school teacher giving you a homework assignment, but this is, after all, Great Debates, and we have an expectation of lucid, articulate posts here. By focusing on a set of specific questions it may be possible that you can achieve some degree of this yourself.
On the other hand it could be that you have confused this forum with the BBQ Pit. Over in the Pit vituperative ramblings are not only tolerated but often applauded.
I don’t know what all the fuss is about Lolo. Personally, I’m not impressed.
Lolo seems to be some self-appointed arbiter of what counts in life. “I’m not impressed” is a weak-ass debate topic - you want to rant, start a pit thread. You want a fan club, go to MPSIMS. What, exactly are you debating here? And what, if anything, can any poster add about Jesus to impress you? Nothing.
Well, I suppose it’s as good a time as any for my obligatory semi-annual reference to the Atheists for Jesus. Some new people might not know about them.
Lolo, it seems to be something that you don’t agree with yourself on; you specifically mentioned being unimpressed with Jesus several times in the OP, then when people started to debate this, you started retreating into vague stabs in the direction of God and religion generally, I’d say that qualifies it as a rant.
here’s what happened. I said I wasn’t impressed with Jesus, a bunch BS followed until we got to this suggestion-
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At which point I commented about that book.
then Ahunter3 posted his summation of Jesus’ life, at which point I was still unimpressed.
Then M said, “Erm, in the New Testament? (since we’re talking about Jesus, not Xianity)”
but he was referring to that book, which I understood to be the bible and not just the NT.
then emarkp said I wasn’t atking God seriously, which is amusing seeing as no one can possibly understand God, so who’s to say who takes it seriously or not.
then bricker said " Look, Lolo, when you say, “I’m not impressed by Jesus,” you are implicitly talking about - well - Jesus. To step back now and say that your failure to be impressed by Jesus stems from the wrath of the Allmighty as told in the Old Testament is not useful."
so, bricker conflated the confusion betwist M and myself.
then I mentioned that it seemed I’d peeved Christians by saying I wasn’t impressed by Jesus.
so, bordelond said "Sounds like that was your goal. Why would you come out and gloat over that?
BTW, why shit on people’s beliefs? If any holy-roller ever got in your face so bad you wanted to punch them, hey man, I sypathize. It’s happened to me, and a lot of us here, I’m sure. In-your-face witnessing is not very many Christians’ cup of tea, believe me. I think it blows, too, and is disrespectful of your right to believe whatever you do.
But if that ever happened to you, that’s no reason to shit on other people’s beliefs. Don’t take it out on the mass of Christians you come across on this board. Most of us can respect your beliefs (I hope we can, all!). Surely, you can avoid such an insulting topic as this."
I never said it was my goal. I just made an observation that by merely suggesting Jesus was to me unimpressive, it peeved the Christians. So B’s post can be disregarded.
moving on…
M returns with this gem, "Yup, you definitely said it was Jesus you were unimpressed with, now you’re sliding in the direction of God/Religion generally.
Why don’t we just agree that religion is the cause of all wars and evil in the world? then we can close the thread."
But, in actuality, I was not sliding, just responding to the responses.
Might I reiterate, I did not intentionally confuse the issue. It became confused as others joined in and were unaware of circumstance.
I will address the rest of the posts in a moment.
and will also be taking apologies… MANGETOUT!
I didn’t think I’d have to preface every single sentence with “In the context of the premise of the Christian God…” but I suppose I’ll have to. Sigh.
(with a little clarification)
In the context of the premise of the Christian God, God knows what is needful and what isn’t, and hence you can’t make such claims (although you could reasonably make an argument as to why you think something is needful or not).
I’ll also note that you utterly ignored the issue of death in the context of an afterlife.
