Of course, HubZilla! I was trying to discover whether Lolo’s langour was at what he saw as patently false stories of miracles, or whether the problem was that, even accepting the miracles as true, his life and deeds were unimpressive. Since the OP lacked a certain measure of rigor and definition, I was trying to get a handle on what, specifically, the debate was.
Your comments, above, seem clear: you acknowledge that, if true, the supernatural events attributed to Jesus are impressive; you question whether they really happened. It’s still unclear to me if this is Lolo’s position as well.
Three questions, some of which have been asked before:
Are you talking about Jesus himself, the Christian religion, God, or the Bible? At one time or another you seem to have mushed one or more of these together. Your OP indicated that it was Jesus himself that you were talking about. Is that right?**
[QUOTE]
I recapped all of that.
To be honest, all together and individually fail to impress and/or disgust and/or irk.
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John Kennedy Toole, author of “A Conferacy fo Dunces” (that should probably be underlined, no?)
but as far as historical figures… hmm… good question.
I suppose I can’t think of anyone. I can’t say I’ve given much thought to who I AM impressed with.
I’m completely stumped. Maybe I’m just drawing a blank. If I think of someone I’ll let you know.
Galileo, Newton, Einstein…
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Like Mangetout said, if I believed it I might be impressed. But I don’t, so that’s probably skewing my opinion. But, then again, it is MY opinion.
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I find Jesus unimpressive, as I find any end-of-the-world cut leader unimpressive.
I find his supposed actions to be patent lies and false claims.
I am positive he said almost nothing of what has been attributed to him. do you remember high school? Do you remember how a rumor never resembled anything close to the truth from the begining of a day to the end? Now, that was only a few hours of manipulation. Give it two thousand years, and suddenly people are walking on water and turning water into wine.
I find it appalling to watch people support this supposed son of God, their only source of info a book, only to ignore parts of the book showing Jesus as nothing more than a common spiritual healing, demon casting evangelist.
If you want to turn water into wine, you need grapes.
If you want to walk on water, you need David Copperfield.
Etc.
and if you want to view the book as parables and allegories, than Jesus is as impressive as any white knight in any Disney cartoon.
I am entertained by Jesus? I suppose I could be, if others didn’t take him so seriously, build a religion around him, and pretend he’s really the son of God.
His story is simply the conflated myths of his time, taken seriously by far too many people.
Why does it bother you what others think about Jesus? Are Christian opinions about Jesus offensive to you? Do you have difficulty being tolerant to Christian beliefs?
Do you feel this way about other things about which people may not agree with you?
This is an intellectually dishonest characterization. There has not been “2000 years” of manipulation concerning the stories of Christ. They were written down early on, and have not changed substantially.
Taht said, there’s no question that there was some room for manipulation at the beginning. And if, as you suggest, a high-school can change a story in a single day, I agree there was ample opportunity for the stories of what Jesus said, and did, to be altered.
Were they?
Absent a time machine, we have no way to tell. But the general principle is that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. If someone claims Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth,” then this is a reasonable claim. It doesn’t fly in the face of anything we know, and was reported by different authors whose sources were primary. In short, the evidence is reasonably strong that he said this… and you’ve offered no evidence to contradict it.
(Incidentally, it’s not hearsay, unless I bring it up as evidence that the meek actually will inherit the earth.)
Now, when you discuss turning water into wine at the wedding feast, a different situation emerges. Here we have a claim that does fly in the face of our common sense: there is no rational explanation for what was observed and reported. From a debate point of view, we are entitled to disbelieve this without strong evidence that it happened.
What is inarguable, though, is that many people close to the event believed it. If this were governed by the rules of evidence, I’d argue that this evidence shows not whether he did it or not, but what state of mind his contemporaries had.
Even if you deny that his contemporaries were real, there’s no denying that subsequent generations believed it: indeed, their belief seems to form the basis of your disdain.
So I’d argue that while the extraordinary events attributed to Jesus are not anywhere close to having credible, independent evidence for them… it’s beyond cavil that Jesus’s supposed deeds have influenced and captivated millions. For this, if nothing else, I’d argue he’s impressive. In short: even if he was a fraud, his fraud was so successful and his cult following so intense… ya gotta give him props for that.
Sure - but what Disney character has influenced millions like this?
Got it.
Well, ultimately, what impresses you, and doesn’t, is your business. I’d argue that if there is any reasonable objective criteria for being impressed, Jesus fits it. But if the question is merely your subjective impression, and it’s not based on any misapprehension, then that ends the debate.
Matthew 5:17
'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets – I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;
Matthew 5:18
for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.
Matthew 5:19
'Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands – the least – and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach [them], he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
Now, we are aware of the commandments, aren’t we?
So, how may people, do you suppose are going to hell?
I find your reasoning, as I’ve found other Christian reasoning, immeasurably short of impressing anyone who sin’t a WWF wrestling fanatic.
Let’s see if we can make a fun analogy.
“I’m not impressed by WWF wrestling.”
“Even if you don’t believe it’s real, you gotta give it props. Think of the enormous fan base. Think about how many people close to the events think it’s real.”
No, please, hold your applause. Seriously, I’m just a man. Oh, well, if you must cheer, set your hearts free!
Well, maybe when he actually starts a debate, it will make more sense. This is more an exercise in absurdity and arguementism.
LoLo, please give you definition of “impressed”. If nothing or no one impresses you, then your only reason for starting this was to incite people to anger. That is very defintion of troll.
By the way, wrestling is quite real if looked at in the proper context. But I don’t see you being able to see any other viewpoint than your own.
If you didn’t want to be here, you didn’t have to come.
My point was I wasn’t impressed. You who are impressed have failed to show me why I should be impressed.
If one is willing to step outside their shell of belief in fairy tale, one can see how someone like myself would be unimpressed, even, if you will, amused by those who are impressed.
So, if you don’t want to talk about it, don’t post.
If you don’t agree with me, oh well.
It’s not as if I dislike any of you b/c of this discussion.
What’s happened is simple and amusing. I’ve taken the other position, and b/c of this, now I’m a troll. Bullshit. Pardon my English, but bullshit is bullshit no matter who spews it.
Face it, my seeing the Jesus story as an unimpressive little fairy tale bothered you b/c you take it seriously, not b/c I haven’t made valid points.
and to this, please, save me the “you haven’t made any points” response.
Hmmm… I really don’t know what to make of this thread, and especially now with this from Lolo:
I think maybe what happened is that an MPSIMS thread kinda got stuck here in Great Debates. It does, however, raise something I’ve been meaning to open a thread about for some time, and so I think I will.
Shortly, please look for the thread about Hard Atheism.
You have yet to give your definition of “impressed”.
There is no discussion, all you keep saying is that you are unimpressed, while neither defining what that means nor defending your position with anything else than simple contradiction.
Bullshit is bullshit, and a troll is a troll.
You not what they say when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself. Many here do not take the divine story of Jesus as serious (including myself). Again, your position is simple contradiction without any valid points or serious discussion.
If you don’t like being called a troll, stop acting like one.
No, it really is because you haven’t made any points, although perhaps you could stop all the “you haven’t made any points” response by… oooh, lets see now… making some points?
And this is simply wrong - scroll back and look; it’s not just the theists that are finding this thread vapid, besides, you’ve made it abundantly clear by your attitude that the last thing you intend to do is shift from your “I’m not impressed” stance, no matter what.
)
Those what have chosen it are already there.