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Are you saying that God is descended from David??? If so, you’ve stumped me on this one Daniel.
Zev Steinhardt
I’m afraid not, Daniel. He advocated violation of the Sabbath, among other things. He held that he was an intermediary between himself and God. I highly doubt he would have been considered a student of Hillel.
Zev Steinhardt
Zev- actually the other way around- David was of the linage of G-d, as it was from G-ds image that Adam was made.
Hillel was famous for “cutting to the quick” and advocating a more practical interpretation of the Law. JC saying “The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the sabbath”, and allowing starving men to gather & eat food, sounds rather Hillel-like to me. However, the JC that, later, accepted mote of a Meesiah-role, and did “hold himself out as an intermediary”, did indeed, tuen from the accepted jewish path. Ie, if JC had not been/accepted the role of the Messiah, his teachings would have been in line with some of the rabinnical teaching of the time.
I humbly submit that Jesus had to prove he descended from David’s line if he wanted the throne of an independant Israel - a theocratic monarchy, traditionally. It wasn’t until Jesus failed to free Israel of Roman domination that his message was figured to have been more spiritual than political.
The only primary writings which exist in the New Testament are the writings of Paul, who never met Jesus personally (unless you count epileptic visions). I say this because it may be unfair to think Jesus advocated violation of the Sabbath - can you imagine anyone trying to quote you forty years from now without written documentation, let alone voice recordings or digital camcorders?
Also, there is scant evidence besides a philosophical similarity linking Jesus to Hillel. Paul, the true founder of Christianity, claimed to be a disciple of Gemaliel, though.
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But when a “house” is spoken of, it generally means “descendants of.” For example, Moses’ sons could certainly be considered of the “house of Aaron,” but they were not kohanim. In that respect, God is most definitely not of the “House of David.”
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Yes, Hillel’s ruling were often lenient when compared with Shammai’s. However, if one is literally starving and in danger of death, then even Shammai would permit desecration of the Sabbath. If they were simply hungry, however, then even Hillel would not advocate the Sabbath’s desecration.
So, then, you’re saying that if his views on the Sabbath had been accepted, he never would have uttered statements such as “none can come to the Father but through me…?”
Zev Steinhardt
zev- No, what I am saying, is that if Jesus the man- had never made any Messianic claims, and had just been Jesus the rabbi/teacher & maybe prophet, he would likely be quoted today by some Talmudic scholars. But by the Messianic claims, He became outside mainstream Judaism.
And zev, you are correct-USUALLY, when when says “house”, one means descendants thereof-but not always. Thus, by a stretch, and I will admit it is a stretch, one could certainly say that Adam was of the House of David, as well as the other way around.
And, it says the Apostles were “an hungered”- which I take to mean “weak with hunger”, ie, perhaps not starving, but close to. Shammai would likely say NO, but Hillel?
You should tell the Board a bit about Hillel, zev. I think they would be surprized & illuminated. Many of JC’s teachings were said 1st by Hillel.
Well, what does “close to starving” mean? Was there a risk of death if they didn’t eat, and, if so, was there no way to get food without violating the Sabbath? If both of those are true, then I don’t think Hillel, Shammai, or anybody would criticize them for picking the grain. If either of those circumstances were different, then both Hillel and Shammai would have had problems with their action. I don’t really see how Jesus’ teachings fit as part of Rabbinic Judaism at all…but maybe I’m just ignorant about it. Could you explain?
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If there would be no loss of life (and especially if it just meant being hungry a little longer) then, yes, Hillel would have said not to desecrate the Sabbath.
I’m not quite sure what you want me to say…
Zev Steinhardt