so today I heard the whole pedigree of jesus, from Abraham to Joseph, three groups of fourteen generations (counting Jesus). It encompasses most of the big names of the OT- Solomon, Ruth, David, etc. In fact, one of the prerequisites for being the Messiah is that you come from the house of David.
Yet, a whole helluvah big deal was made that Joseph was not Jesus’ father (at least, his real father). How and why the lineage’s importance?
jb
A WAG here, but I would think that in Biblical times, it was still more important to know who your father was than your mother. Even though Joseph may not have been the biological father, he was considered Jesus’ father by just about anybody else who was around at the time.
The reason is that the ‘immaculate conception’ was added to the story later. Christianity changed a LOT in it’s first 400 years.
well no duh. What is the justification or rationalization given now?
jb
ponder Didnt the lineage of David come to Jesus through Mary? I could’ve SWORN I heard a sermon on that somewhere back when I was still being forced to attend church on semi-regular basis.
The only reason it really matters now is that Christians are pretty adamant about the whole Jesus being the Messiah thing. And their proof is in the prophesies that he fulfilled. And one of those was that he must come through a certain lineage. So basically… its their way of saying… “See? Obviously its Him. He came through the right lineage and everything.”
At least, thats my understanding of it.
Immaculate Conception != Virgin Birth.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was born without sin.
The fact that she was a virgin when she gave birth to her eldest son is a totally seperate aspect of her.
True, it was added much later, but to theology, not the NT. But what does the concept of Mary being born without sin have to do with the lineage of Jesus?
As for the OP, Jesus’ lineage determined whether or not he was legally entitled to the kingship by being from the house of David. Jews claim he isn’t (adoptive children don’t have the same rights of inheritence), Christians claim he is (because if Jesus can’t claim that right, he can’t be the Messiah).
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*Originally posted by Mayor Quimby *
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Actually, Jews, for the most part, don’t think of him at all…And there are other reasons Jews say Jesus isn’t the messiah…
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This I don’t buy. Both the lineage and the “this guy was conceived through Holy Seed” are in the gospels. Although I agree that the Church has undergone incredible changes over its history, I don’t think this is one of um.
jb
The geneology that the OP refers to is found in Matthew 1. Another geneology is found in Luke 3. My copy of The New American Bible ( an annotated papist translation ) gives the following note for Matthew:
That sounds like balanced commentary to me but the annotators drop the ball on the Luke geneology, noting only that it continues on all the way to Adam. It fails to point out that the geneologies are different, as a side by side look ( from http://www.earlygospels.net/ ) demonstrates.
The question is, why do the Evangalists fail to agree on Jesus’ family tree?
A fairly balanced explanation can be found here.
The two geneologies that 2sense mentions have a couple of satisfactory explanations. One is the Matthew list is of Joseph, and the Luke list is of Mary. Having married Mary, Joesph also inherited her geneology as well, IIRC, the tradition was a little more solid than the current ‘in-laws’ of western society.
Any good commentary of Matthew and Luke will shed some light to the issues involved.
HTH, Peace.
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Actually, Jews, for the most part, don’t think of him at all…And there are other reasons Jews say Jesus isn’t the messiah…
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I wouldn’t go as far as saying they don’t think of Jesus at all, and certainly not in the context of their faith. But if you go to any Jewish website, you can almost guarantee that Jesus is mentioned in one way or another. I think the Jews don’t speak enough about him. It urks me that Judaism and many of it’s core beliefs are so mis-represented by Christianity and never truly defended by the Jews. I understand that not wanting to convert others is a tenet of Judaism, but I don’t see anything wrong when their sriptures are misrepresented so often. I thought it was the Jews responsibility to inform the Gentile world about the Torah and then let them make up their mind. Personally, I think they present a much better arguement on all fronts on why Jesus is not the messiah when they bother to speak up.
Well balanced how? A christian apologetics site will not present a well balanced explanation. First of, the first question is based on a false premise, interpretting a Genesis verse as one referring to the Messiah. Here is a list of verses that refer to the Messiah: Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20, Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39, Ezekiel 38:16, Hosea 3:4-3:5, Micah 4, Zephaniah 3:9 ,Zechariah 14:9 ,Daniel 10:14. Any other OT verses quoted by Christianity are usually taken out of context to try to convince others that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied about.
They HAVE to come up with explanations for this for their claim of Jesus to be the Messiah. You can’t have a faith without a foundation, and Jesus being heir to the throne of David is one of them.
It certainly can be argued that “Y” was “of the House of David”. And, of course, by a miracle, anything is possible.
Well, but, if Jesus is mentioned, it’s done in reaction, because Christianity is dominant here, and you get tired of answering “Why don’t you believe in Jesus?”. But, Jesus is about as important to Judaism as a faith as Buddha is.
Actually, my WAG is that if JC had not been lauded as the Messiah*, he would be quoted today, as one of the rabbis in the house of Hillel. Perhaps, tho, a very minor one, but I like to think not.
Luke, I am your father !
But isn’t Jesus considered a prophet by both Judaists and Muslims? Or is he just Robert Tilton without the ability to make people’s hands tingle through the television?
Did, um, did I mention that I passed out in the National Cathedral the other night? That’s probably gonna cause some problems at the pearly gates.
I don’t know who Tilton is, but Jesus isn’t considered a prophet by Jews. He is by Muslims, though.
And, I hope you’re feeling better after having passed out.
I was feeling pretty good then, too, Cap. Thanks for straightening me out.
Here’s a little Bobby T for ya; simplicity itself:
Just send your money there. They take both checks and money orders. Regrettably, I cannot find the site that proudly displays the crutches and wheelchairs cast aside as a result of Robert’s preachin’, but I can assure you that the fellow is quite convincing, to the right sort of person.
This is creepy. My second reference to Consumtionjunction.com. I haven’t even been there in weeks. Sigh.
Anyway, go into crazy crap, videos, and look for “Even god loves a good fart joke”. Robert Tilton at his scary best.
jb