How come Jesus doesn’t allow people to kill themselves so they can get in heaven earlier? (If you ask me, it’s just an excuse made up by the followers. What difference does it make how you get there if Jesus loves you so much!)
If the pitcher of a baseball team prays for his team to win, he’s actually asking Jesus to have the other team lose, right? Why is that okay?
If one team prays to win and the other team prays to win, who does Jesus listen to and why? I mean, isn’t it ask and you shall recieve? How can they both get what they want?
Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but the Jesus people seem to hang out in here.
Remember, Jesus didn’t write the Bible. People several hundred years compiled the Bible and filled in the blanks as best they could. As an Agnostic guesser I’d say that they realized that paitning heaven as such a wonderful place might encourage people to seek it sooner rather than later. Since that would be a bad thing for their religion they worked in killing yourself as a sin.
Of course, that’s just my version. I’m sure someone can come-up with the ‘official’ reason from the Bible soon enough.
As for praying for your tem to win I think that’s not supposed to work. Jesus is off the hook here. What you’re supposed to pray for strength and guidance for yourself. If everyone prayed for that on both teams then it’s a wash and the best team wins anyway.
IANAX, but according to the Xian paradigm as I understand it, to kill oneself would be to despair; to give up on god. And to second-guess god: he decides when it’s time to go, it ain’t up to you.
Judas I. commited suicide. People who kill themselves do not go to heaven since they have refused God’s gift of life. If they are a servant of God they should be doing his work.
As far as baseball, many Christians forget how to pray perfectly and should remember the Our Father.
Hey, don’t call me a troll for asking a few questions. Maybe I didn’t frame them in the politest way, but I was curious.
I’m still curious about some things. For instance, I heard the original commandment was thou shalt not murder, not kill. Well, is suicide murdering yourself? There’s no malice aforethought in suicide, is there? Just dispair, I’d think. Also, why should Jesus decide when you live or die? If Jesus puts a person in a terrible life and the person wants to end it and be in heaven with Jesus, why would Jesus not like htat? Or at least reincarnate the guy and let him start over.
And there are lots of times when people pray for their own benefit. Sometimes they win, then Jesus gets the credit. When they lose, they say, well, Jesus decided we shouldn’t win. Like those Grammy winners. Some of them thank Jesus for this and that, well, was Jesus in the studio? Did Jesus do all that work? No, (for the sake of simplicity)the artist did it. Same thing goes for the band that doesn’t believe in Jesus and wins, they worked just as hard. The one that prays just thinks Jesus did it all, and they probably prayed before the show, Jesus, please let me win! They’re actually praying for everyone else to lose, and they can blame it on Jesus if they don’t win.
Like the kid who wants to hit the winning home run who says, Jesus, please let me hit it, just this once, I’ll do blah blah blah…etc. Does Jesus actually listen and respond to all these people?? Or just sit back and let fate take its course? Well, if that’s the case, why pray at all, why not just get off your duff and do the best job you can, since basically that’s what you have to do anyway?
I also think that Judas guy should be a saint, since basically Jesus set him up! That’s why he killed himself, right? He figured out that Jesus used him in a horrible way.
A girl
It’s a sin against Hope, one of the virtues all Christians are called to.
Ah, but Christians aren’t supposed to pray in public, but in secret. So how would you know this if they were really Christians? People are doubly vain if they think God listens to their vain prayers.
Again, I point you to the Our Father. This is a prayer to God and not to Jesus. This prayers asks for the things it is in God’s power to provide us with we hope.
Thank you, jmullaney, for answering my questions without being mean. I appreciate that. I dno’t know how to “unbold” parts of a post, so this is going to look a little funny.
I just wanted to talk about the prayer to win a game and for the other team to lose. I don’t know about anyone else, but when it comes to sports prayer, I tend to pray for blessing for both teams to play a good game with no injuries not to win or lose.
If I were to say “Why do all the gays act so feminine all the time…and I’m asking because this is where all the gay people hang out”?
It would be hard to interpret that kind of question as a sincere question …because of the kind of attitude associated with the question.
The bit about “Jesus people” (by the way, I dont know anybody who seriously uses that term to describe themselves) praying before sports is a very old joke bit…
Therefore (at least for me…I certainly dont speak for anyone else)…using that kind of phrasing when you ask a question does indicate something about the purpose of the question.
I didn’t say anything about rude Jesus followers (better? )and their behavior, I was looking for experts on Jesus. I can’t very well say “Jesusists,” can I? Like Buddists (sp)? Christian seems kind of limiting. Jesus people seemed all-encompassing. Sorry to be offensive. Perhaps Jesus-loving people, or Jesus-worshiping people or something like that. I needed another adj…
I didn’t know the sports thing was an old joke, but considering where I heard it, I should have known, so I apologize for that too.
(to turn off bold, type [ / B ] (minus the spaces.)
If he hasa hope that there is a heaven, then he does still have hope. Besides, commiting suicide hurts his neighbor also, especially his friends and family. The final judgement is of course left up to God. The Catholics teach “Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.”
It’s in Matthew chapter 6:
Er, well, prosthle… um, I can’t spell it either, can take many forms. Attempting to convert someone who isn’t in the room by talking about them with others, even if God is supposed to be somehow in the loop, is an offense against Truth. Again, I fall back on the Catholics:
The idea is that, if you believe in Jesus, anything you ask in his name will be done. And that is true, though if you are asking for things which would be contrary to God’s will, you don’t believe in Jesus in the first place – so that isn’t as great as it sounds.
Jesus was going to get busted sooner or later, and when he came to the capital city for the holy days he was sort of asking for trouble. Maybe he wouldn’t have gotten busted that year. Maybe they would have caught him without Judas’s help. Betraying your friends just ain’t a good thing.
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*Originally posted by jmullaney *
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Hey, it worked! thanks! Now the quotes are all messed up, but the bold works!
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**I see. So the person could actually do it, and God can decide later about it. I guess that makes sense. I mean, if the person has a disease that they’re in pain and dying from, I hope that person would be judged differently from someone who just said, I can’t stand this life anymore. But i still think Jesus should help the guy out, not just say you’re going to burn in hell if you do it! (The quote kinda went over my head… sorry. Does it mean his responsibility to his family and neighbors? I should think if he’s already in anguish, worring about the neighbors or Jesus won’t keep him from doing it.)
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** I see. Interesting. I’ve never read the bible myself, so I don’t know what all is in there. I’d never heard that before. Still seems like a lot of people are breaking this rule!
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Er, well, prosthle… um, I can’t spell it either, can take many forms. Attempting to convert someone who isn’t in the room by talking about them with others, even if God is supposed to be somehow in the loop, is an offense against Truth.
** I would call it gossiping too.
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**so wait a minute. If a person believes in Jesus and prays, “Lord, I’m going to take all my winnings and salary from this game and give it to the orphans, but I can only get that money if I win,” you think god would say ok and let the guy win? Anything you ask? Does that mean without having to get off one’s duff? For instance, if I believe in Jesus and I weigh 200lbs, and i say, Jesus, please make me skinny… he’ll do it?? Come on! If that works, I’m going to church tonight and beg forgiveness for my sins and the whole deal!!! (I don’t weigh 200. haha! but still!) But if in the end i have to do it myself, what’s the point of prayer?
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haha, that’s a good point. But Judas did think he was set up, and he kinda was, if you ask me. But all I know about it is from Jesus Christ Superstar, and that’s not a joke! But I did get ahold of a Gideons Bible once in a hotel room and the movie follows the story pretty closely, except for that Harrod’s scene, I think they improvised a bit there! Anyway, I just kinda feel sorry for the guy. I think he was picked from birth, as we all have our special path in life, our own lessons to learn. That’s how I looked at it. It just seems like there was a little too much coincidence of events, it’s not like one day he was walking by and decided to turn jesus in out of meanness or spite. He thought Jesus was losing it, getting too carried away, and thought about it for a long time before he did anything. jesus didn’t want to listen or talk to the guy. He just kinda said, hey, judas, buzz off, because i’m sure jesus knew that would get Judas thinking even more. that was my take on it. But true, he didn’t have to do it, but hey, Jesus didn’t have to do what he did either. He had to follow his destiny, as did Judas.
i agree with much of your sentiment here…Whitewashing Judas as the betrayer of Jesus, is at best, missing a significant portion of the story. The rest of the disciples slept during the night…and Peter (who later becomes the historical head of the Catholic church) goes on to explicitly betray him 3 times…
There is a certain notion of destinty/prophesy in the actions of many new testament characters that has always been hard for me to grasp.
As with most of the gospel message (at least from a judeo-christian point of view) …we can usually find a significant portion of “us” in the weaknesses of the players
Use [ / quote ] to turn off, [ quote ] to turn on, and you can also nest quotes.
OK, it is a bit of a cop out. If you are insane, you shouldn’t be held responsible for your actions. But then isn’t suicide always insane? Even if the insanity is just caused by your suffering? You always have to leave open the chance for redemption. I don’t think you can go to anyone’s funeral, no matter how much of a scroundrel that person was or how they dies, and anyone is going to pretend to know what the fate of their soul was beyond the hope that they got to heaven anyway.
Yeah, well, there are many sects of this religion. Reading the gospels is a good place to start to learn more. You can read them online, I’ve gotten to like this site: The Bible Gateway.
Well, I don’t like focusing on all the things God says not to do, because it makes this religion sound like it has no upside – but God gives us these rules for a reason. So in your example, the man is gambling which isn’t a good idea. And, he is making a promise to God, which is also forbidden, (as a promise is just an oath) whether he means what he says truly or not. So, he doesn’t seem to be a very Godly man.
As Jesus said, blessed are the lilies of the field, for neither do they sow, nor do they reap, and yet the Lord takes care of them. But that doesn’t mean a Christian should be lazy. He should try to get what he needs as long as he doesn’t use unjust means of doing so.
Hmmm… interesting twist… Lord, don’t give me my daily bread – I’m on a diet! The miracles God does on earth he does through those who believe in Him, or through His angels. God probably isn’t going to just grant vain requests. Although patience is a virtue also. And laziness is bad. As for the point of prayer, I’ll give it some thought, but if it helps to point to toward a church that has given this a lot of thought (although I am confused by some of their teachings myself), you might try what the Catholic Church has to say about prayer. It is a little high minded, but is probably better than what I could tell you.
Judas really never “got it.” And that is unfortunate. I don’t know if I like the idea that some people will never get it, or if that is their destiny or not. Things do have a weird way of working out the way they work out. God does account for our failings in his plan and this may be a good example.
Jesus never said, in so many words, that suicide is a sin. Nor did he say that you would burn in hell for that sin. It is the Catholic Church (and others) that has listed suicide as a sin.
JC said, basicly: Don’t be judgemental, love one another, and don’t hurt others. Often, YOUR suicide will hurt others. Any sin can be repented, and forgiven- but it is very hard to repent of suicide. Thus, if you kill yourself, and by doing so hurt others, you die an unrepentant sinner.
Now, in my Church, you will go to hell for that- until you repent. Which, as most suicides are not evil- would be a very short time. You would KNOW the suffering you caused others, and then you would very likely, repent. You could be out of there in “no time”, assuming that was your big sin.
I suppose, if your “seppuko” harmed no-one else, and you had repented (for the other sins), there would be no sin.
Suicide is a mortal sin because if it wasn’t there’d be Christians impaling themselves on their own spears all over the place trying to get into Heaven quicker. (Think Heaven’s Gate cult.)
Ok, before I begin I want ppl to know I don’t mean any disrespect. If you are christion and are offended by ppl negitivly refering to your beleifs, please don’t read anymore.
There is no god, its merly a figure brought up by human minds to cope with the unknowen and control mass groups for there own ends. (That sounds a little to much like a conspiracy therost I know…)
IMHO, Christian thought as far as I can see it is to have as many people as you can all belive in the bible/god, thereby in the heads of the belivers the “thruths” they preach become more ture. (Hey, everyone else is belives in this, it must be right) This inturn sooths the fear of the unknowen (Such as death) by the use of false security which is brought on by the lemming like thoughts of knowing everyone else belives in it. Whats witnessed here is massive assimulation(sp?) of groups to ease the insecurity of the assimulator (Chirstains)
At least, thats my pesimistic veiw on large scale religon…but on any note how all this relates to the OP is that if you have members of your group killing themselfs off, you loose out on some of the lemming like cloud they contributed to (Hey, bob just hung himself, thats the 7th person this week, maybe this christion stuff is not so hot…) And of corse, leaders of this group can’t loose there false sence of security lest they fall back into the fear of the unknowen, so they make it a sin.
I hope this made any sence, I have a teniticy to babble about stuff. I’m sure i’ll be flamed hardcore for this by the christian folk on this board, I don’t mean any disrepect, its merly MHO. Peace
Hey! An athiest with horrible grammar and spelling! Wildest Bill should feel better, his dopleganger is here in the form of CanyBoi!
Christians aren’t the only people that believe in God, and some of us don’t fear death and the unknown or are blind followers without intellect.
But even Christians believe they are put on this earth for a purpose, and to take one’s own life would be rejecting God and His plan for you. Kind of the “cut off your nose to spite your face” scenario.