Jesus VS. The Invisible Pink Unicorn

[Liberal]

David

Precisely (well, mostly – I’ll get to that in a second). And that choice comes from the mind. That is, when there is a choice. What about the person who is good but then takes a blow to the head, changing his personality? Has he made a choice to become evil (or at least less good)? Has his “heart” changed? Has his “soul” changed?

We disagree fundamentally.

I don’t think moral choices (as opposed to motor choices) come from the mind. I believe they come from the heart, i.e., the essence, of a person, where his Spirit dwells.

A person is not good because he is smart; and a person is not evil because he is retarded. If a brain fails to work, the Spirit lives on. Goodness and evil do not come from synaptic discharges, but from essential character.

See Marshall Stewart Ball as a case in point.

While most genes don’t have anything to do with morality, there are likely some that cause the person to be very likely to be somewhat less than good. So whether they are “amoral,” I’m not sure.

Which brings up this…

I never said anything of the sort.

I know you didn’t say it. I said it.

If people are born with “evil genes” and “good genes”, it stands to reason that you can eliminate evil by social and genetic engineering.

What? What theory? What are you talking about?

The theory that morality is in the mind or genes. Wasn’t that what you said?

Read what I said, Lib, not what your libertarian knee-jerk reaction thinks I said. I very carefully worded that to say the “moral equivalent” because I knew you would say something like this about speed limits (as would I). I was talking about morals, not specific law breaking.

It is as I told you. The exact same deed might be good in one context and evil in another. Life is nothing but moral equivalencies. That’s what we’re all doing here, acting out our morality.

Goodness and evil are not in the deeds themselves (which come from the mind), but in the motivation behind the deeds (which comes from the heart).

OK. Now, we all know that you have said Gaudere has a loving heart. So are you saying that she only does good? She never does anything “bad”? (I’m not saying that she does or doesn’t; I just want to know your opinion.)

That’s right. Gaudere does only good, and never does anything evil.

It occurs to me that your definition of “bad” or “sin” is very different from the Bible thumpers around here. To make sure we’re understanding each other, can you please try to define what you mean when you say those words?

Surely. Sin is coldness of the heart. It seems to me to be a self-documenting metaphor, but I’ll be glad to explain it if you wish. Coldness, in this sense, doesn’t mean an ordinal position on the Kelvin scale; it means the absence of Love.

Long Live the IPU! (Gotta keep this vaguely topical.)

T’was a big day in Heaven
in Heaven’s own back yard!
Jesus playing quarterback,
and Moses playing guard.

Jesus threw a touchdown
to beat the boys from Hell.
The angels in the grandstand
let out a mighty yell!

Rock 'em, sock 'em!
Moses block 'em!
Big “G”, little “o” “d”.
Goooooooooo, God, Go!

[tracer]

Scylla wrote:

I think it’s entirely possible to lead a sin-free existence in Heaven without any free will contradiction.

Sinning in Heaven might be like driving on the Autobahn. There IS no speed limit, therefore it’s impossible to speed. Sin may be an impossibility once you shuffle off this mortal coil. The term “Sin” might be meaningless once you become an Angel. If you have no body and no posessions, it might be pretty hard to sin.

There is something to be said for this. You can’t exactly rape, pillage, loot, and murder without a corporeal body.

But as I understand it, there are supposed to be some sins that are sins of thought alone. I.e., according to Catholic doctrine (and perhaps the doctrine of at least some Protestant faiths), it’s not only a sin to feel up Mary Jane Fenstermacher, it’s a sin to want to feel up Mary Jane Fenstermacher. It’s a sin to think about Mary Jane Fenstermacher naked.

These kinds of mental sins could be committed even without a physical body. As could the “sin” of deciding not to be a Christian anymore.

Then again, Heaven might be like the Borg collective. When you die and go to Heaven, maybe that just means you join the mind of God, and become part of it. Perhaps you no longer have the same identity you did on earth, but are just a part of the collective God-mind. Once you are part of God, again the term “sin” would be meaningless.

… which sounds to me an awful lot like you wouldn’t have free will anymore.

[Moe]

**
Then again, Heaven might be like the Borg collective. When you die and go to Heaven, maybe that just means you join the mind of God, and become part of it. Perhaps you no longer have the same identity you did on earth, but are just a part of the collective God-mind. Once you are part of God, again the term “sin” would be meaningless.

… which sounds to me an awful lot like you wouldn’t have free will anymore.
**
[/QUOTE]

Beat me to it.

But this thread, including the links provided way back when (was it by Satan? IIRC)(and the other about the IPU) is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. ROTF LOL.

And, Lib, I just want to say that I think you have an awesome sense of humor, and have added greatly to a thread that might, and apparently has, been a sore spot for others with christian beliefs.

Rock On!! WHOOOPPPPEEEEE!!!

[David_B]

Since we were going waaaaay off the track of this thread, I’ve started a new one to discuss the soul/spirit thing. I’ve responded to Lib’s last post there.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=29615

[tracer]

Darn.

Well, you might’ve moved our little debate, but I still won’t lick any invisible hooves. No matter how pink they are.

[CelticFire]

Ok guys follow me on this one: Jesus is King. Kings reign. “Reign” sounds like “rein”, therefore Jesus reins and saddles IPU. No contest. Jesus, you da man!

[David_B]

OK, follow me on this one: IPU is invisible. Invisible sounds like indivisible. Therefore, She cannot be divided. We all know that to conquer, one must first divide. Since Jesus cannot divide Her, he cannot conquer Her. IPU wins. No contest. IPU, you da Unicorn!

[Esprix]

*Originally posted by Libertarian *

Actually, free will is what Heaven (and Hell) is.

No, Hell is other peeeeople! It’s peeeeeople!

Oh, no, wait - that’s Soylent Green.

Esprix

[Esprix]

tracer, one thing you’re missing - those who have accepted Christ into their hearts have consciously sought help in freeing themselves from sin. When they finally get to Heaven, they really want to not sin, and Jesus helps them accomplish that - so no sinning in Heaven.

Yeah, yeah, I think it’s a bunch of bunk n’ hooey, too, but that’s what it’s always read to me.

Esprix

[tracer]

But Esprix, if it is logically possible for people in Heaven to have free will and yet be “the kind of people who will not sin,” then why didn’t God create Adam and Eve as “the kind of people who will not sin” in the first place?

[Liberal]

Temporality is so parochial.

[MrMcPlad]

But Esprix, if it is logically possible for people in Heaven to have free will and yet be “the kind of people who will not sin,” then why didn’t God create Adam and Eve as “the kind of people who will not sin” in the first place?

Because God couldn’t force them to be “the kind of people who will not sin” or else He would be removing their free will. One must choose to be that kind of person.

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

But are you honestly saying that the only people in Heaven are those who choose goodness always? They never tell a lie? They never fudge their income taxes? They never pull the moral equivalent of doing 60 in a 55 zone? Or are you equating “goodness” to a more overall characteristic?

It seems to me that Libertarian is positing that souls in heaven have free will to sin in the same way that a paraplegic has free will to go out dancing.

If you are somehow transformed so you would never sin, or if the tools of sin are somehow taken away from you in heaven, how can it be said that you have any kind of meaningful free will? My advice is don’t argue it - just say that when you go to heaven, you can’t sin anymore, and free will is irrelevant.

[tracer]

MrMcPlad wrote:

But Esprix, if it is logically possible for people in Heaven to have free will and yet be “the kind of people who will not sin,” then why didn’t God create Adam and Eve as “the kind of people who will not sin” in the first place?

Because God couldn’t force them to be “the kind of people who will not sin” or else He would be removing their free will. One must choose to be that kind of person.

Ah, but one does not need to be “the kind of people who will not sin” in order to get into Heaven! One only needs to believe that Christ is his/her Lord and Savior. This means that Heaven will be full of people who are not “the kind of people who will not sin.”

Unless being in Heaven has robbed them of their free will, of course.

[Liberal]

It seems to me that Libertarian is positing that souls in heaven have free will to sin in the same way that a paraplegic has free will to go out dancing.

Okay, go stand in the corner. That is not what Libertarian is positing.

Those in Heaven have free will to sin in the same way that Uncle Cecil has free will to be ignorant. Or, to use your images, those in Heaven have free will to sin in the same way that Michael Jordan has free will to play basketball poorly.

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

No need to send me into the corner. Anyway, the room I’m in is round.

Your analogies have made it clearer what you’re trying to say, but if one has “free will” to do things that, by his very nature he would not do, is this so-called “free will” in any way meaningful? I mean, you wouldn’t notice if it was taken away, would you?

[Liberal]

Your analogies have made it clearer what you’re trying to say, but if one has “free will” to do things that, by his very nature he would not do, is this so-called “free will” in any way meaningful? I mean, you wouldn’t notice if it was taken away, would you?

Obviously, two things are required for meaningful free-will: freedom and volition. Take away either, and free-will fails.

Cecil, given his enormous intellectual capacity, chooses to be the smartest person on earth, and by his own volition, he has achieved that end. So long as he is not prevented from going about his business, there is nothing to stop him. And if something stopped him, he would notice it.

Heaven and Hell are both contexts of freedom wherein you may exercise your moral volition. If by your very nature, you strive to be the very best or very worst that you can be, then the only way your free-will in that regard is rendered meaningless is by tyranny, that is, the imposition upon you of someone else’s will.

You are never more free than when your freedom is not called into question.

[MrMcPlad]

Ah, but one does not need to be “the kind of people who will not sin” in order to get into Heaven! One only needs to believe that Christ is his/her Lord and Savior. This means that Heaven will be full of people who are not “the kind of people who will not sin.”

                     Unless being in Heaven has robbed them of their free will, of course.

I do not agree that simply believing that Christ is one’s Lord and Savior will save you. I doubt the road to eternal happiness is that easy. I believe that one must obey God’s commandments, be baptized, and repent of all sins in order to be saved, etc. These are my personal convictions and I’m sticking to 'em.

[Moe]

*Originally posted by MrMcPlad *
I do not agree that simply believing that Christ is one’s Lord and Savior will save you. I doubt the road to eternal happiness is that easy. I believe that one must obey God’s commandments, be baptized, and repent of all sins in order to be saved, etc. These are my personal convictions and I’m sticking to 'em. **

This is the Great Debates forum. If you want to share your personal convictions take it to IMHO. If you make a statement “these are my personal convictions and I’m sticking to 'em” how can anyone debate that?
BTW, if I’m Jewish do I still have to be baptized to get into heaven?

If I am baptized, obey all the commandments to the letter, repent all sins, and even walk a couple of old ladies across the street, but don’t accepte Christ as my lord and savior, do I go to hell?

If you’re right, we should be able to stamp out evil by selective breeding or cloning

I don’t believe that idea is too far off. Psychology has shown that personality is an interaction between heredity and environment. You are contolled by your heredity to a point. Alcoholism has shown a strong correlation to heredity and if alcoholism is considered evil, there’s one of many examples. I really can’t remember exactly, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe many personality traits have been positively linked to genes including anger, depression, and many types of anti-social behavior.
We,of course, can’t put this idea of selective breeding or cloning to the test because that would be a human imposition on freewill, but, while certainly not stamping out all evil, this could surely make a noticeable difference. And if we could control 100% of one’s experience as well as his/her heredity, then theoretically we could remove all “evil” from that person, (however you choose to define "evil).

[Scylla]

Free will or not, I still say that JC can kick the IPU’s ass!