I’ll take that as “Ok, you’re right”.
Professors at Harvard & University of Chicago aren’t serious academics?!!
Also, it’s quite possible to acknowledge that there is a statistical difference in psychometric test results and that ethnic bias can exist.
monstro, I’m not reading anyone saying that Slavery and Jim Crow should not be taught. Are you? Just that the experiences are not exactly analogous and that it is a mistake to consider them as if they were. It is a mistake to compare them too much, and forced analogies force that.
And yes my parents were teen-agers during the Holocaust. Yes I lost family during it, family that I never got to meet.
And Shmedrick is exactly correct. No country lifted a finger to stop the genocide or even to assist those who had otherwise escaped from having to return to certain death. The Holocaust was stopped only as a secondary consequence of protecting nation states from German conquest. The world did not give a shit about the massacre of half a dozen million Jews and a few million others (Roma, etc.). Some felt the Jews sort of deserved it.
Why care? Because Jew hating to the point of mass murders is a recurring theme over the past two thousand years. A generation or so of assimilation and success, then an economic downturn and the Jews get blamed and murdered en masse. That’s just history. The German Jews before the rise of Nazism were highly successful overall, both in academic and economic circles. They were highly assimilated and listened more to classical German composers than to Klezmer. Until the German economy collapsed after WW1. What would make anyone believe that historic patterns have just stopped, that human nature has suddenly changed? Things are not so bad in America now, but my father had to pretend to be Italian to make sales and I’ve personally was called a kike and a Jewboy in college (and honestly thought I was going to be killed, literally battered body found, when I got into a fight with that very large football player racist in response. And the funny punchline was that I got out having come out on top and the first person I ran into to vent to was a guy who was the one Black guy in my otherwise White and more than half Jewish fraternity, who gave me the greatest look when I innocently vented and asked if he had any idea what it was like to come up against something like that … Oh, yeah, I forgot you’re Black.).
A few decades into a “good” part of the cycle, in this country only really, really is not enough to relax about it.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that those who chant “Never Again” and mean never again only for the Jews, rather than “never again should the world sit by while genocide occurs”, make a major mistake. But to turn Hillel’s famous saying on its head: “I cannot be the what that is only for myself, but if I am not for me, who will be?”
It would be interesting to see the viewpoints of muslim people living in the West. Reading this 2003 EU report it seems Arab & middle eastern migrants tend to be responsible for a number of physical assaults.
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And in December a former EU commissioner suggested it wasn’t safe in the Netherlands.
They don’t blame American jews though, read their article here.
Great film, thanks for bringing it to light, monstro. Entertaining young man if a bit Moorish in his ways I salute him for his effort. That said, I’d think you’d know better than to bring this as a topic to GD what with all the years you’ve been here: page after page of Impenetrable Walls Of Text© defending all that’s Right with Israel.
Don’t agree? Anti-Semite and/or self-hating Jew. Duh!
Just ask Mr Foxman.
Sorry, but I don’t trust documentarians who use cranks and it’s pretty clear that the filmmaker started off with a conclusion, which you seem to agree with and then decided to “prove it.”
As many have pointed out he clearly either lied or heavily edited the interview with members of the ADL if he’s claiming that he couldn’t find any examples of violence against Jews.
Beyond that, even if they’d found no anti-Semitic assaults in New York City, I don’t see why anyone except for a complete moron would think that means that anti-Semitism isn’t an issue in other parts of the world.
What’s next, having a poll in Amsterdam which shows widespread acceptance of gays so we then decide that
Beyond that, you seem to be making a real mistake regarding bigotry.
You seem to be saying, “well a lack of violence against Jews proves there’s no anti-Semitism” when that proves no such thing.
Now, I might be wrong, but I get the impression you’re white and one mistake a lot of white people is to misunderstand how racism and bigotry work.
I’ve never been called a “raghead” or a similar slur to my face nor have I ever been threatened or attacked based on my ethnicity(at least not in the US) but that hardly means that I haven’t encountered racism.
The same is true for most blacks or Hispanics I’ve met. I suspect most African-Americans have never been called a nigger to their face(at least not by a white person) or been attacked by whites, but that hardly means that racism in the US doesn’t exist.
Dude, I’ve read the book and they make it quite clear that they believe that the Israeli Lobby was responsible for the Iraq War.
In fact you quote them specifically claiming that the Lobby was “a factor” in the decision to go to war.
Now, you seem to be saying, “Harumph, harumph, they claim they don’t hate all Jews or blame all Jews so just because they believe in Jewish conspiracy theories they shouldn’t be called anti-Semites”.
By your standards neither David Irving nor Father Coughlin should be labeled anti-Semites because both insisted they didn’t blame all or even most Jews for the evils of some Jewish elites.
No, people who spew bigoted drivel are bigots regardless of where they work.
People also ripped *The Bell Curve *apart as bigoted trash despite the fact that it was co-written by a Harvard Professor.
Moreover, hacks can work at Harvard too as John Mack has fervently proven.
I’m not sure you’re point here. I said that people like Harvard professor Richard Hernnstein who insist that blacks are less intelligent than whites are bigots and you seem to be conceding that the tests which “prove” this are biased or have I misunderstood you?
I’m not sure why you snapped at him and frankly you seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder yourself with your complaining about the way crimes against Jews are talked about.
monstro, I’d invite you to imagine a history in which the abolitionists had not even existed and the indeed not only the major reason, but the only reason, slavery was abolished was as a side effect of a war fought exclusively to keep the South from seceding. And someone said, well, delayed reaction, but they stopped slavery, the Blacks didn’t free themselves. And you responded, accurately, that they didn’t do it to free the Blacks. And the response to you was “Whatever doll. Knock that chip off your shoulder.”
How do you think you’d be feeling in response to that statement?
Roughly 40% of the world’s Jewish population was killed off in the Holocaust and the world did not act to stop it. And you dismiss it as a chip on a shoulder? You claim that as Black woman you understand oppression and you say that?
I suppose the Nazis just decided that enough was enough and gave up?
Basque country isn’t under the control of terrorists. The people there didn’t elect the ETA as their national party. That’s why Spain was able to give them some autonomy and give in to some demands for independence. Israel can’t do the same thing to territories run by Hamas or Hezbollah - whose main goal isn’t just independence from Israel, but also the complete destruction of Israel.
You are cordially invited to read posts #48 and 53 of this thread.
Good Lord, where was that?
And here it is. The topic of the film is anti-Semitism, in Europe and the U.S. Israeli policies are not the issue. But you insist on conflating them, along with the typical “there is no such thing as anti-Semitism, only legitimate protest against Israel” dig.
Is it really the pro-Israeli zealots who are solely responsible for conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, or is the blame also borne by Jew-haters like RedFury, who insist on holding all Jews responsible for Israel’s actions, and reflexively denying the possibility of anti-Semitism in contexts that have nothing to do with Mideast politics?
Do you really not see the irony here?
“When people say ‘black’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a drug addled criminal.”
“When people say ‘homosexual’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a promiscuous, effeminate wimp with AIDS.”
“When people say ‘Muslim’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a swarthy kill-crazed terrorist with a suicide vest.”
Just to be clear here, you hate Jews for wanting religion, which is a protected class, to be granted reasonable accommodations? Or you have the ADL for compiling statistics which include those sorts of figures?
The only person I recall saying anything about wanting to kill Nazis was one Israeli girl talking about to wanted to kill the people today who are the heirs to the Nazism. Do you have a quote or time-index in the film?
Is it really evident from the footage, do you speak Polish? I don’t. But even assuming that one girl mistranslated or even wildly imagined a slur where none existed, that doesn’t bear out your claim that the group as a whole was “over-the-top paranoid” but that one single girl on it was.
Again, two students. And we’re talking about Poland.
You said that if blacks treated slavery the same way Jews treat the Holocaust, that there would be objections. I pointed out that blacks and Jews aren’t fungible, and the Holocaust and slavery aren’t fungible, so your analogy breaks down. Now you seem to be arguing several different things.
Nope. WWII was not about the Holocaust, at all. And as pointed out, even the UK went on to continue imprisoning Jews even after Israel was established as a sovereign state, and wouldn’t let them immigrate there.
And that’s the point, the Holocaust is relevant because it shows that, even in modern times, the world can and will stand by why Jews are exterminated.
Check our Red’s post again.
Well… yah. Stalin’s butchery was different from the Holocaust, and slavery is so wildly disparate as to be connected pretty much by “they were bad things, that were based on race, and lots of people died.”
Who said it is?
Statements like that do show that you don’t understand. It’s not about “hurt feelings.” (seriously, monstro?) It’s about the fact that, time after time, Jews have settled in to a country, become secure and prosperous, and then had the gentiles turn on them and-or kill them. Just because both blacks and Jews have suffered oppression does not mean that the two experiences are fungible
The first may, potentially, speak to paranoia on behalf of one girl, or it may have been an honest mistranslation (or, for that matter, the filmmaker himself may have been wrong in the translation). The second sounds much more like the kind of ‘ghost story’ that groups of teens away from home tend to tell to freak each other out. Nor does that speak to any kind of unique Jewish sort of paranoia. Poland does have a problem with neo-Nazi groups.
Going from stories that teens on a trip tell each other to scare each other isn’t a slam dunk case for over-the-top paranoia, nor is a possible mistranslation made by one single girl.
Well, since it’s GD I can’t really speculate on whether or not Red hates Jews, but he’s certainly gone on record saying the sort of anti-semitic things that he’d prefer be viewed as being simple anti-Israel rhetoric.
For instance, he named a bunch of people in the American government whose names sounded Jewish to him (including Greek Orthodox Christian George Tenet) and alleged that all of them should be investigated for potential Jewish Treachery because, well, he never did identify what his reasoning was other than that they were Jews in the government (and perhaps that they were uppity enough to disagree with his politics). Rather than identifying the fact that that’s a racist argument, it’s easier to use the sort of claims that Red has. Red’s post, in a very good way, serves as an object lesson for what the thread is about. Just like Rev. Wright reverted from “Them Jews” keeping him from talking to Obama to “I really meant ‘Zionists’”
If you have a view that’s anti-Semitic, you can claim that it’s “anti-Zionist” and it becomes ‘okay’. Just like Sevastopol’s gone on record as saying that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah which voice their support for the genocide of the Jews or who spin elaborate conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world aren’t really anti-Semitic, since it’s “in the context of anti-Zionism”
And to head off any angry mouthbreathing at the pass, of course there are criticisms of Israel that aren’t anti-Semitic, and bits of anti-Semitism that have nothing to do with Israel. But the only thing more absurd than the claim that there’s no intersection between anti-semitism and anti-Israel sentiment, is that nobody at all can criticize Israel without being called an anti-semite.
It has been a while since I read M & W. When the book came out those criticisms of it did not talk of them claiming Israeli Lobby ‘responsibility’ for the Iraq war.
The second paragraph quoted above is a different thing, talking of a “factor”. As I recall it, that conclusion was arrived at in a respectable way.
Quite possible, but I must admit that I don’t actually live in Montreal (I’m in Sherbrooke right now), and among Montreal Jews they’re not the ones who get the most media coverage. But thanks for the information, there are more of them than I would have guessed.
See my previous comment about media coverage. There might not be many of them but they find the way to get in the news. To a French-speaking Montrealer who may not know many Jews in person, since most of them are English speakers, they make up a large part of the public face of the community.
In my mind as well, to be honest. (David Levine’s the second name that comes to me.)
Perhaps. That’s the “two solitudes” phenomenon: francophones don’t know much about Canadian English-language culture, and anglophones don’t know much about Canadian French-language culture. I, for one, have heard of him, and I know he was considered one of Canada’s greatest writers, but I’ve never read his books and I don’t intend to. I’ve got better things to do than to give myself an aneurysm.
By the way, I think they’ve just released the movie adaptation of Barney’s Version and the critics seem to be very good. I’m not going to see it either.
As said in the thread, monstro is a black woman. I assume she’s aware of how bigotry works.
I haven’t seen any evidence that RedFury is a Jew-hater, at least not in this thread. He came in belligerently, I will admit, but what he was saying is that many people get smeared with accusations of anti-Semitism (or of being a “self-hating Jew”) only for criticizing the actions of the government of Israel. I don’t want to re-hash this debate once again, but I’ve noticed it too.
I think there’s a difference between a Hasidic Jew and a suicide bomber. But I only said that when they require the society they live in to bend over in order to accommodate their wants, they’re going to attract negative attention, attention that will fall over the Jewish community as a whole, since they are its most obvious members.
I think you linked to the wrong thing. This is about mirages.
WTF… no clue how that got into my cut and paste cache.
Here is the correct one.
“attention that will fall over the community as a whole” is the definition of racism.