Really?
I suppose the Nazis just decided that enough was enough and gave up?
Basque country isn’t under the control of terrorists. The people there didn’t elect the ETA as their national party. That’s why Spain was able to give them some autonomy and give in to some demands for independence. Israel can’t do the same thing to territories run by Hamas or Hezbollah - whose main goal isn’t just independence from Israel, but also the complete destruction of Israel.
You are cordially invited to read posts #48 and 53 of this thread.
Good Lord, where was that?
And here it is. The topic of the film is anti-Semitism, in Europe and the U.S. Israeli policies are not the issue. But you insist on conflating them, along with the typical “there is no such thing as anti-Semitism, only legitimate protest against Israel” dig.
Is it really the pro-Israeli zealots who are solely responsible for conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, or is the blame also borne by Jew-haters like RedFury, who insist on holding all Jews responsible for Israel’s actions, and reflexively denying the possibility of anti-Semitism in contexts that have nothing to do with Mideast politics?
Do you really not see the irony here?
“When people say ‘black’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a drug addled criminal.”
“When people say ‘homosexual’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a promiscuous, effeminate wimp with AIDS.”
“When people say ‘Muslim’ around here, the image that will come to most people’s minds is a swarthy kill-crazed terrorist with a suicide vest.”
Just to be clear here, you hate Jews for wanting religion, which is a protected class, to be granted reasonable accommodations? Or you have the ADL for compiling statistics which include those sorts of figures?
The only person I recall saying anything about wanting to kill Nazis was one Israeli girl talking about to wanted to kill the people today who are the heirs to the Nazism. Do you have a quote or time-index in the film?
Is it really evident from the footage, do you speak Polish? I don’t. But even assuming that one girl mistranslated or even wildly imagined a slur where none existed, that doesn’t bear out your claim that the group as a whole was “over-the-top paranoid” but that one single girl on it was.
Again, two students. And we’re talking about Poland.
You said that if blacks treated slavery the same way Jews treat the Holocaust, that there would be objections. I pointed out that blacks and Jews aren’t fungible, and the Holocaust and slavery aren’t fungible, so your analogy breaks down. Now you seem to be arguing several different things.
Nope. WWII was not about the Holocaust, at all. And as pointed out, even the UK went on to continue imprisoning Jews even after Israel was established as a sovereign state, and wouldn’t let them immigrate there.
And that’s the point, the Holocaust is relevant because it shows that, even in modern times, the world can and will stand by why Jews are exterminated.
Check our Red’s post again.
Well… yah. Stalin’s butchery was different from the Holocaust, and slavery is so wildly disparate as to be connected pretty much by “they were bad things, that were based on race, and lots of people died.”
Who said it is?
Statements like that do show that you don’t understand. It’s not about “hurt feelings.” (seriously, monstro?) It’s about the fact that, time after time, Jews have settled in to a country, become secure and prosperous, and then had the gentiles turn on them and-or kill them. Just because both blacks and Jews have suffered oppression does not mean that the two experiences are fungible
The first may, potentially, speak to paranoia on behalf of one girl, or it may have been an honest mistranslation (or, for that matter, the filmmaker himself may have been wrong in the translation). The second sounds much more like the kind of ‘ghost story’ that groups of teens away from home tend to tell to freak each other out. Nor does that speak to any kind of unique Jewish sort of paranoia. Poland does have a problem with neo-Nazi groups.
Going from stories that teens on a trip tell each other to scare each other isn’t a slam dunk case for over-the-top paranoia, nor is a possible mistranslation made by one single girl.
Well, since it’s GD I can’t really speculate on whether or not Red hates Jews, but he’s certainly gone on record saying the sort of anti-semitic things that he’d prefer be viewed as being simple anti-Israel rhetoric.
For instance, he named a bunch of people in the American government whose names sounded Jewish to him (including Greek Orthodox Christian George Tenet) and alleged that all of them should be investigated for potential Jewish Treachery because, well, he never did identify what his reasoning was other than that they were Jews in the government (and perhaps that they were uppity enough to disagree with his politics). Rather than identifying the fact that that’s a racist argument, it’s easier to use the sort of claims that Red has. Red’s post, in a very good way, serves as an object lesson for what the thread is about. Just like Rev. Wright reverted from “Them Jews” keeping him from talking to Obama to “I really meant ‘Zionists’”
If you have a view that’s anti-Semitic, you can claim that it’s “anti-Zionist” and it becomes ‘okay’. Just like Sevastopol’s gone on record as saying that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah which voice their support for the genocide of the Jews or who spin elaborate conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world aren’t really anti-Semitic, since it’s “in the context of anti-Zionism”
And to head off any angry mouthbreathing at the pass, of course there are criticisms of Israel that aren’t anti-Semitic, and bits of anti-Semitism that have nothing to do with Israel. But the only thing more absurd than the claim that there’s no intersection between anti-semitism and anti-Israel sentiment, is that nobody at all can criticize Israel without being called an anti-semite.
It has been a while since I read M & W. When the book came out those criticisms of it did not talk of them claiming Israeli Lobby ‘responsibility’ for the Iraq war.
The second paragraph quoted above is a different thing, talking of a “factor”. As I recall it, that conclusion was arrived at in a respectable way.
Quite possible, but I must admit that I don’t actually live in Montreal (I’m in Sherbrooke right now), and among Montreal Jews they’re not the ones who get the most media coverage. But thanks for the information, there are more of them than I would have guessed.
See my previous comment about media coverage. There might not be many of them but they find the way to get in the news. To a French-speaking Montrealer who may not know many Jews in person, since most of them are English speakers, they make up a large part of the public face of the community.
In my mind as well, to be honest. (David Levine’s the second name that comes to me.)
Perhaps. That’s the “two solitudes” phenomenon: francophones don’t know much about Canadian English-language culture, and anglophones don’t know much about Canadian French-language culture. I, for one, have heard of him, and I know he was considered one of Canada’s greatest writers, but I’ve never read his books and I don’t intend to. I’ve got better things to do than to give myself an aneurysm. 
By the way, I think they’ve just released the movie adaptation of Barney’s Version and the critics seem to be very good. I’m not going to see it either.
As said in the thread, monstro is a black woman. I assume she’s aware of how bigotry works.
I haven’t seen any evidence that RedFury is a Jew-hater, at least not in this thread. He came in belligerently, I will admit, but what he was saying is that many people get smeared with accusations of anti-Semitism (or of being a “self-hating Jew”) only for criticizing the actions of the government of Israel. I don’t want to re-hash this debate once again, but I’ve noticed it too.
I think there’s a difference between a Hasidic Jew and a suicide bomber. But I only said that when they require the society they live in to bend over in order to accommodate their wants, they’re going to attract negative attention, attention that will fall over the Jewish community as a whole, since they are its most obvious members.
I think you linked to the wrong thing. This is about mirages.
WTF… no clue how that got into my cut and paste cache.
Here is the correct one.
“attention that will fall over the community as a whole” is the definition of racism.
Ah, so we can’t call a conclusion bigoted if it’s “arrived at in a respectable way”.
I assume then you’re pissed at me accusing Charles Murray and Richard Hernnstein of being bigots because they arrived at their conclusions that blacks are dumber than whites “in a respectable way.”
You’ve also ignored there were numerous flaws with that book which make it of little use such as their asinine decision to not interview the people who would understand the best about interactions between government and political lobbies.
Sorry, but claiming that a cabal of powerful Jews who care more about Israel than America played a key role in the decision to invade Iraq is anti-Semitic and anyone who doesn’t think so is either a bigot or a moron.
See, this view isn’t borne out by the history. Conflict and persecution are parts of human history wherever you look. Peoples and nations come and go, all the time. Not pretty but it’s true.
The Etruscans, Picts and Sumerians, their vanishing is the normal, not the exceptional case. The context shows there is no exceptional bias of history against the Jews.
Actually that’s true. Bigotry is all about closed minds.
Do not know the named gentlemen.
Leaving aside ‘cabal’, you have to go where the evidence takes you. Ruling a conclusion in or out because it displeases is what bigotry is all about.
Ah, well then apologies for the mistake.
I’m very sure she’d agree with me than that using racial slurs and assaults as a measure of bigotry and one’s experiences with it is a pretty piss poor indicator.
Like I said, I’ve never had a white person call me a “raghead” or similar slur to my face, but I have experienced racism(not that I want to go all woe is me).
Countless believers in Eugenics and various other forms of scientific racism would be applauding your logic.
Every racist thinks that there belief is “logical” and that they went where the evidence took them.
Anyone, since you want to push it then a couple of fairly easy yes or no questions.
-
Do you think that AIPAC played a key role in George Bush’s decision to invade Iraq?
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Do you think that it’s not bigoted to claim that for genetic reasons blacks are less intelligent than whites?
Thanks for the link.
Good lord, what’s with Polerius?
Didn’t he realize that the Joel Stein column he was quoting from was a joke?
In other words, it’s the Jews’ fault for surviving.
No. It’s not the definition of anything. If it’s something, it’s the process that leads to the development of a stereotype. And stereotypes are usually based on facts, even though relying only on them is lazy thinking. Plenty of people, including here, believe in stereotypes about groups of people. That doesn’t make them racists.
Yep, it is. Ascribing negative actions of a part to the whole of a group is racism, pure and simple.
Also known as, racism.
Yes, we call them racists.
“believ[ing] in stereotypes about groups of people” is universally viewed as a form of bigotry whether it’s believing that Jews control the government, blacks make great dancers, or that Muslims are terrorists.