Jewish Dopers: Have you ever watched the film "Defamation"?

Great Debates
161

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by the last question?

I’ll just say that I think the Naqba was disgusting human rights violation that shouldn’t have happened. While horrific, it also occurred at the same time when a similarly large number of Jews were being effectively expelled from Muslim countries and when a much larger and far more complete examples of ethnic cleansing removed all the ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia and not too much after much larger numbers of Muslims were expelled from Greece and Greeks were expelled from Turkey. Nor for that matter should it be forgotten that at the same time much, much larger numbers of Muslims were expelled from India while again massively larger numbers of Hindus were expelled from what became Pakistan.

Personally, I wish the Balfour Declaration had never been issued, but it’s far too late to turn back the clock.

I assume that you’re simply a passionate supporter of the Palestinians and their cause and I’m sure you were well aware of Kuwaiti expulsion of Palestinians are outraged at the lack of disgust for this as well as the American government’s culpability in it.

Anyway, if you don’t mind, why did you list George Tenet as being an American official you suspected of “dual loyalty” since he’s a Greek American?

Were you concerned that he might be tipping off the Greek government to something? If so, what?

Also, what was Michael Chertoff doing on the list? I’m pretty sure he’s never even visited Israel.

What has he done which would make you suspect his loyalty more than that of say Hillary Clinton or Karl Rove?

162

And why were all of the other Jews on the list of suspected traitors?

163

Dude, get a grip. That particular post of mine has been linked to by Finn a thousand times as some sort of “sure fire condemnation” of my anti-Semitism. OTOH, you’ll note I wrote the qualifier “off the top of my bald pate”…so got a couple wrong (though, if true about Chertoff, I’d be interested in knowing the US’s stand vis-a-vis holding dual nationality). Apologies. Let’s discuss the other ten.

And/or the role of the PNAC in the run-up to the Iraq invasion. Just not in this thread, 'k?

As for the question, I’m afraid I can’t make it any more clear for you.

:::shrug:::

164

What do you mean by the US’ stance on dual citizenship?

Lots of Americans have it. For example, I was born in Iran so I have dual citizenship as does my father.

Are you under the impression that there is or should be some sort of restrictions on us?

165

Since we are in GD, it’s being used as proof of a whopper of an anti-Semitic statement you made. Whether or not you are an anti-Semite, or just say anti-Semitic things, is a subject for another forum.

And you’re still not identifying the actual process you used to identify those Jewish Traitors. That you said something blatantly anti-Semitic “off the top of your head” is, evidently, something you think that modifies an anti-Semitic statement. It doesn’t.
You still have yet to identify any reason you accused them of Dual Loyalty other than that they were all Jews in politics. Well, and one Greek guy who got included in the list of Traitor Jews somehow. That should also be explained.

Naming a bunch of black people “off the top of your head” and saying that they need to be investigated for dealing drugs, and being unable or unwilling to give any reason for such an accusation? Especially if a non-black person ended up in that list and when you’re made aware of it, you say “oh, then I’m not accusing that guy after all”?
That would be a racist thing to say too.

Indeed, you really can explain the process of reasoning involved in coming up with all those Jewish (and one Greek Orthodox) name and accusing them all of potential traitorous Dual Loyalty. Just, ya know, not here. Except, of course, you also won’t answer it in other forums, as you just demonstrated.

So I think here is a very good place.

What reasoning does that argument have for accusing all of those people, including Tenet because you thought he was Jewish, of Dual Loyalty and treachery?

166

Yankee White

But never mind. This discussion has gone so far afield that it has left the building.

Apologies, monstro.

167

Your argument’s utter bankruptcy is growing more evident with each post. About time for you to identify the reasoning behind that list rather than handwaving it away, eh? Anyways, your innuendo about Yankee White is interesting. You have provided no proof that Chertoff did not have “unquestionable loyalty to the United States.” , or that he is not “native-born” or that he was “married to a person of foreign descent” or that he “traveled to nations hostile to the US.”

Surely you weren’t simply trying to slip in insinuation in that, because his mother was Israeli, he shouldn’t have been granted security clearance. Naw…

The discussion hasn’t gone at all afield. The thread is about anti-Semitism. You said a blatantly anti-Semitic thing. Seems pretty on topic.
Anyways, since you don’t seem to want to do it, I’ll point out some folks from the list.

George Tenet: inclusion in the list of non-patriot dual-loyalty Jews due to unknown reasons. Listing as a Jew at all odd due to his well known ethnic Greek heritage and popular hate sites such as Jew Watch and Radio Islam listing him as a Jew. Accusation of being a non-patriot with dual-loyalty was removed when it was pointed out that he’s not actually Jewish. An accurate, factual claim that someone was a non-patriot with dual-loyalty would presumably stand regardless of their ethnicity, unless their ethnicity was the metric being used.

Michael Chertoff: Born in New Jersey, a full American citizen. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to his parentage and the insinuation that having a parent from another (Jewish?) country is enough to withhold Yankee White status.

Eric Lynn: Obama’s adviser on Middle East matters. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish and has the “wrong” politics.

Lee Feinstein: Ambassador to Poland appointed by Clinton. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish and has the “wrong” politics.

David Axelrod: Senior Adviser to Obama. Critical of Israeli behavior. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish.

Elliot Abrams: Served under Reagan and W. Bush, now an analyst with the CFR. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish and has the ‘wrong’ politics.

Kenneth Adelman: Analyst, ambassador, Pentagon member. Supported the Iraq war, then changed his stance and condemned it. Supported Obama. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish and has the ‘wrong’ politics.

Rahm Emanuel: Chief of staff to Obama, adviser to Clinton, Congress critter. Has an Israeli parentage. During the Gulf War, a war Israel did not fight in, he volunteered to help service IDF military equipment. An active participant in Oslo, Emanuel was also the person to organize the historic ‘handshake’. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish, has a Jewish father, and provided aid to an ally during a war. Raises the question of whether all US military personnel who participate in officer exchange programs and aid our allies are also non-patriots guilty of dual loyalty.

David Frum: Pundit, speech writer for Bush. Canadian who became a naturalized American. Inclusion in the list of non-patriots with dual-loyalty most likely due to the fact that he’s Jewish and has the ‘wrong’ politics.
Any time now, Red.

168

Huh, we’ve had Secretaries of State and Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who’ve been born in countries other than the US. Why would it be an issue for people born in the US?

Besides, which if any of those people had dual citizenship?

169

Obviously, because he had an Israeli mother. Can’t trust an American with an Israeli mother not to have Dual Loyalty, and obviously having that Israeli mother mean that Red could say with certainty that he wasn’t a patriot and had Dual Loyalty. Equally obviously, there must be a post somewhere from Red where he talks about how we can’t trust Obama because of his Kenyan dad.

I’m sure that’ll be cited around the same time Red explains the reasoning behind that list.

170

My instructions were specific to the claim that monstro was arguing that a specific phenomenon existed, something she has not done.

(OTOH, you and monstro had a reasonable (if unresolved) exchange regarding whether U.S. slavery and the Holocaust could be compared, then you went out and changed a statement she made that she would agree to hate two black leaders under certain circumstances to a different claim that she would hate Jews–something she never said.
Now, I understand the winding logic you used to get there, but you have attributed things to her that she has not said, so your claim of injury rings hollow. And your claim that two situations in which people suffered for an act of birth simply cannot be compared lends more weight to her impression that you are setting up the Jewish situation as special.)

At any rate, my only instruction was that her specific remarks regarding Jews living in Muslim lands was not an argument to which she had invested any effort and that any further discourse on that topic should avoid dragging her back into that fray.

[ /Modding ]

171

You’re misremembering.

Her comment was in regards to the ADL keeping a list of complaints, included in which was one complaint about someone whose employers who wouldn’t let them get off of work for a holiday. I was questioning who exactly she was stating that she would hate for keeping an index of people denied time off work for legitimate holidays.

And it was a perfectly legitimate question. If she hates groups that keep a database of people who are denied reasonable accommodation for a protected class, then I was wondering whether she hated that demand itself that people in a protected class be granted a reasonable accommodation.

No, I didn’t. I asked which she was saying, that she hated the ADL for compiling such lists or the people who made such reports that were then compiled.

Earlier you stated that “She made a single observation in a tentative mode, expressing in that very post that she was not sure of her facts.” when she said "But as I understand it, the “Jew-hating” of the Arab world is a fairly recent phenomena. A reaction to Israel and what is perceived to be the destruction of the Palestinian people. " And the only thing that she expressed explicit uncertainty about was whether or not any massacres that might be perpetrated would be carried out by Arabs. "And I guess I would think that the chance of another wholesale slaughter of the Jewish people is not so likely, given that the West is more enlightened? Who would be slaughtering Jews, specifically? Arabs? I don’t think they have the capability, but admittedly I’m more short-sighted than most people. "

That being your interpretation, it’s a bit less than charitable to then claim that asking her what she meant was “[attributing] things to her that she has not said”. Especially since she did actually attribute things to me that I had not said. Remember, I asked what she meant, she said that I had written “self-righteousy paragraphs about how Everything about the Jews is Different and Therefore Special.”

Surely you see the difference between “what did you mean” and “he said [thus and such]” when [thus and such] wasn’t what was said.

As for ‘injury’, that’s a bit melodramatic. I’m simply noting that in several instances monsto claimed that I’d said things which I had not.

Nah. I pointed out that they were two instances were bad things happened to people because of their race, but that’s where the comparison ended. Numerous ethnic groups in America suffered discrimination too, that doesn’t mean that their experiences were analogous with the treatment of victims of the Nazis or slaves. Or that, for example, there’d be anything but the most gossamar and ephemeral comparison between, say, mistreatment of Italians in the United States and the Middle Passage.

And remember, her claim was not that they were able to be compared in the broadest and most general strokes, but that we should be able to functionally interchange black people’s relationship with teaching/talking about slavery and Jewish people’s relationship with teaching/talking about the Holocaust.

Fair nuff.
I was debating it with Ibn anyways, so I didn’t understand your reference to talking about Monstro’s statements.

172

Finn, I told you that I understood the winding logic you used to get to your conclusion; you stll attributed a thought to her that she had not expressed.

Just let it go.

173

Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember it happening. But to be franck, I had completely forgotten this event.

In fact I was guessing Black September.

174

The logic is hardly particularly winding.

-If Jesse and Al kept lists of people who were denied time off from work for ethnically-significant holidays, she would hate them.
-The ADL does keep lists of peoople who were denied time off from work for ethnically-significant holidays (the keeping of such lists was a whole scene in the movie, I don’t know if you’ve watched it). Does she hate them?
-Or does she, instead, hate the people who enable the collection of those lists by angrily reporting the facts to the relevant organization?

I suppose I could have added
-If you’d hate Jesse and Al for compiling such lists, would you also hate the people who enable the collection of those lists by angrily reporting the facts to them?

But none of those are attributing anything to anybody, they’re asking what someone’s views are.

175

Sigh. OK. The Spanish government did not “give” either Euskadi or Navarra anything which was not legitimally theirs and which they did not already have.

Euskadi came under control of Castilla at different points throughout the Middle Ages, but in any case they kept their Fueros, their own legal systems. Navarra came to share a king with Castilla and Aragon when it was invaded by Ferdinand of Aragon and he succeeded eventually by Emperor Carlos (with Juana I in between, for Castilla), but it was a separate kingdom until the mid-19th century, at which point the Treaty of Sisterhood between both kingdoms officially (re)founded the Kingdom of Spain, “conserving each Territory her own Fueros, Laws and Customs”. Madrid’s forgetfulness of that line gave rise to several uprisings (Gamazada, Guerras Carlistas) and to Navarra’s decision to join Franco after he’d promised to respect the Fueros, which the Republican governments were using to wipe their collective bottoms.

Both areas were a huge spine on the side of Philip V, who finished the personal union between Aragon and Castilla by the procedure of declaring Aragon “conquered land” but could not do the same to Navarra (which was the kingdom to which he was the actual heir), or to the Vascongadas/Euskadi (because they were already part of Castilla, and their separate Fueros an accepted part of Castilla’s legal system).

The Fuero Viejo de Navarra was compiled by Teobaldo I in the 13th century: until then, Navarra’s legal system had been transmitted orally. All he did was put down in writing “how do things work here”, working together with “judges and wise folk”, with anybody who was called in as a judge all through the kingdom. The Fueros got tweaked at different times; the most recent compilation of the “Fueros Nuevos” is from 1973, but like Teobaldo’s work, it’s just a matter of pulling different sources into a single book and putting in writing some unwritten customs (under the Foral system, Custom is before written Law, both in temporal order and in order of precedence). The Fueros of Navarra, Guipúzcoa, Álava and Vizcaya were in effect from the Middle Ages until 1978, when they were replaced by the Amejoramiento del Fuero (“Improvement of the Legal Sistem”, literally) in Navarra and by their Estatuto Autónomo in the case of Euskadi. They were not always respected, but they were in effect (there were several attempts at replacing them by fiat, but those attempts were never legal: “by fiat” is not acceptable under the Foral system).

Madrid did not give us shit. It was ours, because we never lost it. Saying that “Spain gave autonomy” to those two regions is as absurd as saying that England brought cold weather to Canada.

/hijack

176

Late to the thread, but I will share this much - I am not steeped in the politics or semiotics of ADL, but I do know for a fact that they handled discretely a local case where a junior college professor, apparently never having had a Jewish student in her class over about 20 years (entirely possible around here) had a habit of illustrating a certain point each semester with an anti-Semitic slur and analogy.

But this one year, there was a Jew in the class, and she called her out. Followed the school’s comppliant policy to a T, only to be told, too bad, that’s the way it is.

At that point, the regional ADL mediator was called in, who discretely and privately handled the situation. The teacher apologized to the student in class, explaining the hurtful nature of the remarks. The teacher kept her job, and now has a new analogy to explain that point each semester. Presumably, should a situation ever arise again, the administration will be a little bit more aware of how best to apply their own policies.

So, there are a lot of people who hate Jews but might not realize it, and it is possible to change their actions, if not their internal world views, and it does happen that way, and it does happen behind the scenes more often than not I would guess.

Maybe other organizations can and do affect the same kind of behind the scenes changes, or maybe sometimes individuals can do it without assistance.

But it does happen, and it would be an error to judge ADL or others only from what is made public is what I learned from the incident.

Food for thought I hope.

177

Sounds strange. Do you know what the teacher was actually saying?

178

Yes I do, and this being a small town, and my role being a facilitator in enabling the parties to come to a meeting of the minds, I am deliberately leaving out the details out of respect of the privacy of the individual and institution. Should the situation recur in violation of any agreements made, I would have no compunctions about providing the details. I hope you understand.

179

Well, without knowing more details about the situation it’s pretty difficult for any of us to make any determinations about the situation or how it relates to anti-semitism in general.

180

Well, maybe you are heading in the wrong direction by overthinking it.

The point I was making is that I have first hand knowledge where the ADL acted quietly and behind the scenes to effect actual change in behavior in individuals and an institution, contrary to what was said ever happens upthread.

The implication is that what we see in the news is often really dramatic, but the nuts and bolts cases of ADL (and perhaps similar groups) is both effective and not visible to the public.

While this is generally not known, if the public did know it, it would at least have to enter into their consideration of their opinions of ADL. So I provide an example so folks here can incorporate their new knowledge into their opinions and argue less from ignorance than they might have before.