As some of you might know from my MPSIMS thread, I’ve taken an interest in Jewish mysticism recently and I’m just a few days away from starting a ritual from a medieval grimoire inspired by Kabbalah. As part of this, I’ve been reading up on Judaism and Jewish history and lore in general, and just now while reading up on Sheol and various Jewish ideas of the afterlife I came across the concept of gilgul - the idea that a human soul can be reborn again and again, and not necessarily in human form, until it achieves a state of spiritual perfection similar to the Hindu/Buddhist concept of death and rebirth until one achieves Nirvana.
I’d never even heard of Judaism having a belief in reincarnation before, or heard any of the Jewish people I’ve ever met express a belief in it. Modern Judaism AFAIK doesn’t really seem to spend much time dwelling on the afterlife as opposed to living a good and moral life in this world, and it’s apparently very closely tied to Kabbalistic philosophy, but in the reading I’ve done so far it appears that even Chabad (of whom I get the impression that many Jews consider them to be well-intentioned but kinda “out there” in general) endorses the idea and considers it an integral part of the Jewish faith.
I know we have quite a few Jews on the Dope, practicing and non-practicing in various degrees. I’m curious as to what those of you who are willing to share think of it - is it something you’ve heard of at all? Does it get brought up in temple readings or sermons? Do you believe in it? Is it something you’re aware of but don’t put much stock in? Is this just a case of the ultra-Orthodox believing something weird and esoteric that other Jews find silly?
I’d be very interested in hearing any opinions you may have on the topic.
I’m a very secular Jew. But that is my impression also; and for that matter my impression of most historic Judaism, though I’m certainly not an expert in it.
My understanding is that this kind of Jewish mysticism is based on the assumption that the Masoretic text we have today is an accurate copy of the word of God handed down at Sinai, thus justifying the numerology &etc. that Kabbalism is based on.
I was raised Reform, am agnostic, and reject the premise.
Is it something you’ve heard of at all? I stopped seriously believing back in high school, so my views are very out of date. No, it’s not something I’ve ever heard of, but my parents were Reform Jews and bordered on Secular since they didn’t attended temple regularly and only on special occasions. I didn’t hear about Kabbalah until I read about it in middle age.
Does it get brought up in temple readings or sermons? Probably not at a Reform temple, but at a Conservative or Orthodox temple, perhaps.
Do you believe in it? No. There is no evidence that anything happens to you after you die other than your body decomposes, just as any other animal’s body does. If there was any real evidence of Heaven, or Hell, or Reincarnation, it would make front page news.
Is it something you’re aware of but don’t put much stock in? Again, no. I wasn’t aware of it and I don’t put any stock in it, but if someone wants to believe in it I don’t have a problem with that.
Is this just a case of the ultra-Orthodox believing something weird and esoteric that other Jews find silly? I suspect that’s the case, but I doubt most Jews are familiar with the idea. You need to hear from an Orthodox Jew to confirm they are aware of it and whether they think it’s silly or not.
As far as I can tell, camel spiders screaming are just one of many urban legends about them, like their size and speed. The largest species are about 5 inches long, including the legs, and according to this site, they don’t scream. The best they can do is “some species can produce a barely audible stridulation (sounding like a buzz or hiss).” They also have no venom, and the only danger of their bite is the possibility that it could get infected.
The only time I heard about it in the context of Judaism is once, from my dad.
The Druze religion puts a pretty strong emphasis on reincarnation, to my understanding. When I was a kid, there was a documentary about this on TV, where they talked to a few Druze families with specific and particularly dramatic stories about kids with memories of past lives. Kids who claimed to be reincarnations of recently deceased people who supposedly knew things no one but the dead person could have known, etc.
Even at the time, I was pretty skeptical, but I do remember my dad wistfully mentioning that there was some belief in reincarnation in Judaism, too.
Aside from that, I was the sort of kid who got bored in synagogue and read ahead, and the various rabbinical interpretations of things, etc. My favorite bit of pilpul involved rabbis trying to figure out what each non kosher bird was, and theorizing that perhaps one that had never been properly identified referred to pterodactyls. (This would have been one rabbi’s suggestion, listed along a bunch of other competing interpretations.) I don’t remember ever reading anything about reincarnation in those meanderings.
I’ve heard the term gilgul, but I’m not sure if it was in a Jewish context or just as the Hebrew term for reincarnation as understood by Druze, Hindus, etc.
Yes,thats my impression, too. Especially if it’s in the English language, there are very few Jews reading about kabbalah.
If it’s in Hebrew, then there are a few believers, but they are a very small minority, and have already been living their entire lives as very strictly Orthodox.
Gilgul is only ‘like’ the Hindu and Buddhist concept of samsara in the sense that it involves cycles of reincarnation, and are otherwise theologically and philosophically unconnected and not much alike in how they are observed or written about. Kabbalah is not a belief or practice in mainline Judaism, and Kabbalah interpretations are akin to Apocalyptic cults in Fundamentalist and Esoteric Christianity where there are a wide array of different interpretations and degrees of literal belief about which followers argue over minutia and trivia of things not actually found in any of the accepted texts.
Jewish scholars study at yeshiva for many years to understand both the mundane and esoteric aspects of Talmudic interpretation and study of mishnah as relates to both Jewish belief and cultural life. You appear to have skipped all of that in order to just dive head-forward into Lurianic Kabbalah (or whatever Kabbalah-istic belief system you are reading about), which is like celebrities and influencers adopting Buddhist or Native American mysticism without first understanding the historical, cultural, and practical contexts in which those ceremonies and belief systems were practiced and how they served their respective communities.
I don’t know what you are expecting to achieve through this other than some kind of mystical relief from what ails you or transcendence to some elevated plane of existence but it comes off as just grasping at superstitions without even taking the effort to understand the cultural and theological underpinnings of that system. I’m not religious and do not come from a Jewish cultural background so I don’t really care but I imagine that observant and most mainline Orthodox Jews would find your approach superficial, flippant, and appropriative.
Raised reform, though attended temple more-or-less weekly until my Bar Mitzvah, and shortly after my father had a falling out with the temple, so…[1]
Secular Jew now, wavering between aggressively atheistic and agnostic depending on the day.
In temple, my readings, and even in some comparative religion classes, no, it’s never come up as a regular belief. But, Judaism, much like Christianity and, heck, almost any religion with enough adherents and history has plenty of sub-sub-subcults and beliefs.
My attitude towards the afterlife was more ruefully resigned from an early age when talking to my Christian friends:
“Buddy, let me tell you, Yaweh does NOT wait until you die to punish you, if you cross him, expect it immediately if not sooner. Or if he’s just in a bad mood. Being the Chosen people doesn’t mean we’re chosen for greatness, just to be his punching bag.”
Yes, yes, I was an edgy teen, I know.
But again, I don’t personally know any Jewish Kabbalists. And a lot of the ones that have come up in passing seemed very to treat themselves as “enlightened” members of other groups who are in possession of “received knowledge” that Jews and everyone else have missed the point on, and they’ll be happy to explain it to you for clicks/views/$$$.
I do NOT direct this at you @Smapti, if this is how it works for you, great. People find enlightenment through yoga, outdoor treks, world travel, or any other number of different options. If it makes you more self-aware and comfortable with yourself and your place in the world, why not as long as no harm is done to others, and there are no costs involved that put you or those you’re responsible for at risk.
Wanted to try this new feature, so, shortish version, my parents divorced when I was 9. A little before my Bar Mitzvah, my father remarried, and my step-mother is not of the faith. She is a good woman, treated myself and my brother well, and helped out with a few things at temple, though she wasn’t heavily involved. Our reform congregation wasn’t particularly welcoming as a whole [ individual families differed though], and the Rabbi was somewhat inflexible about her role in the community. And then, about 6 months after my BM, the temple sent around their usual solicitation for suggested donation based on income and the “suggestion” included my step-mother’s income as well. My father hit the roof, and we stopped attending, and my younger brother had his Bar Mitzvah at home a year later. ↩︎
Long-term secular Jew here, recent years started attending services for the first time in my life.
I have been aware of Jewish mysticism for a long time, as part of my Jewish heritage, but it’s a really, really, really small part of Judaism these days. (Perhaps even historically, I’m not an authority). Jews have traveled the world for centuries and commented upon what other people do and believe, and since a lot of Jewish writing has made it down through the ages we know a bit more about what Jewish folks were thinking about a couple thousand years ago than we do for other peoples. Given that, I expect there has been some cross-influence over time, although mostly in a minor way.
^ Yes, this. Judaism has a larger proportion of “focus on this world” and “follow these customs” than, say, Christianity. This has been the case for a very long time, perhaps the entire history (again, I’m not an expert). Basically, the afterlife message is “we don’t know” and “we’ll find out so what’s the hurry?” when it is brought up at all. We remember our deceased on a regular basis, but the emphasis is on their memory, not dwelling on what is or isn’t going on with their souls or whatever.
The concept you’re discussing is, indeed, connected to the Kabbalah, which has always been an extremely small niche of overall Judaism. In the context of the culture it’s something you only start on after years and years of study of more mainstream Jewish literature.
Chabad is…well, they’re who they’re are. They emphasize emotions and their definition of piety much more than other Jewish groups. To my (limited) knowledge, though, they aren’t a source of Kabbalistic practitioners. Again, they’re more focused on their lives in this world right now, of being the best sort of Jew they can be within their definitions, rather than speculating on such matters. It’s not a form of Judaism I’d be comfortable with, but for some people it’s how they want to live.
Yes, this is cultural appropriation. On the other hand, the literature is not some super-secret text, it’s been out in the world for centuries at this point. It probably will offend some Jews. For a lot of us we’d just shrug our shoulders. Others will just be happy the person doing the appropriating isn’t calling for a pogrom against us. There will be a wide range of reactions, from positive to indifferent to negative.
My (again, limited) understanding is that from the perspective of an actual student of the Kabbalah you’re just not going to get the full effect because you haven’t put in the years and years of study and prep.
On the other hand if you derive some benefit to yourself from this more power to you.
The only way I’d get mad is if you’d set yourself up as some sort of authority and start charging people to learn your version of this. For your own, private use? This Jew does not care. Start profiting off it? Yeah, that would offend me. But from what I gather this is strictly for your own journey so… I wish you luck. Let us know how it turns out.
OTTOMH I only recall reading about reincarnation once. I think it was Do They Keep Kosher On Mars? The book is a collection of collumns by Sol The Answer Man. One letter asks about the Jewish view on reincarnation. Sol says that (I do not know where my copy is. I cannot remember what sources he cites) that in Judaism, reincarnation is believed to sometimes happen. A soul is reborn into this world because G-d gave them an important task, and they failed to complete it. These reincarnated people are always infertile.
I quoted the whole section because it bears repeating. I think I said this in your thread on the ritual you were performing- The basis of Kaballah is (roughly) The G-d of Abraham is the one true god. The entire text of the Torah was given to Moses by G-d on Mount Sinai. Hebrew is a sacred language. Thus, the text of the Torah is a very powerful sacred text and contains mystical secrets.
The point of Kaballah is NOT the creation of golems, diving the future, revealing hidden secrets, making amulets that protect the wearer or any such thing. Yes, a righteous and learned person using Kaballah is supposed to be able to do all those things. But, they are side effects. The actual purpose of Kaballah is true knowledge and experience of the mind of G-d.
I am not sure how to put this, but IMO you have missed the point entirely. It is rather like joining Alcoholics Anonymous to get coffee and a plastic chip instead of joining to quit drinking and stay sober.
I once heard kaballah described (by a rabbi, I think) as “absolute nonsense, but Jewish nonsense.”
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gentile being interested in it, but only in the sense that Judaism is broadly disinterested - from a religious standpoint - in everything gentiles do.
Personally it feels like learning that somebody broke into a long-disused storage container and tried on a bunch of my Nana’s old clothes. Probably harmless, but also she was my nana. Get your own nana, gentiles!
Or don’t, whatever.
This is a really important point. The magic bits are like the shadow cast by a righteous person. Not something you can just learn outright.
Well, depending on how you interpret certain parts of the Torah, you can just learn it outright, but you really shouldn’t.
In some interpretations, the sorts of secrets unlocked by Kabbalah are how Pharaoh’s wizards were able to match some of Moses’ feats, or how Balaam is able to be a diviner and miracle worker without being a Jewish servant of God.
But working magic like that is supposed to be very unnatural and wrong.
I hadn’t heard that about the Egyptian priets/wizards. Yeah, this part is often forgotten. Moses first goes to Pharoah and shows him three ‘miracles’. The first two never made it into the movies. He shows that his hand is normal, then white an afflicted with advanced leprousy, then normal again. He turns water in a vessel into blood. He turns his staff into a serpent. The priests/wizards are able to duplicate all of these. But, Moses’ snake eats theirs. The Pharoah remains unconvinced.
Balaam is another issue. IIRC He was a prophet and was given various signs (including a talking donkey. There is a Shrek joke in there. I just know it.) that he should bow to the G-d of the Jews and fulfill a divine mission. He ignores these signs. At one point, he is about to lay a curse on the Jews. To his surprise, when he opens his mouth blessings come out instead. IIRC Balaam refuses to change sides and is eventually (what is the past tense of smite?)
Never heard of it.
I’ve never heard of it being mentioned in services.
I don’t put much stock in it.
I’m not sure who you mean when you say “ultra orthodox”. There are both Chasidic and Mitnagdim branches of ultra-orthodox Judaism, and even within Chasidic Judaism, the Lubuvitchers are seen as a little “out there”. A friend who is borderline Conservative/Modern Orthodox has said that “the religion closest to Judaism is Chabad”.
Anyway, the only ultra Orthodox people I’ve ever spoken with about Judaism are Lubuvitch, so I don’t know what the others might think about reincarnation. But I’m dubious that anyone outside of the Chasidic movement ever considers it, and wouldn’t even bet that mainstream Chasidic Jews do.
I suppose it is. I guess cultural appropriation really doesn’t bother me, even when it’s kinda sorta my culture. So long as it’s done respectfully, and not in a mocking way, I say, “take whatever works for you from my culture”.
(There are troublesome forms of cultural appropriation. I don’t think this is one of them.)
The Khartomim, is what they are called in the original Hebrew, often translated as “Magicians”. I assumed there was some etymological relation to Khartoum, but I actually can’t find a source for that (and actually very few English sources seem to transliterate Khartomim, unless I’m wildly off on the proper English spelling?).
That etymological question might be worth its own thread.
A simple reading of the source material implies they were capable of magical deeds. Some explain this as trickery, but the other explanation presented is that they really did have magical powers that they got by basically hacking and (ab)using the rules of reality as God wrote them at creation.
I went to a Conservative temple, but leaning more towards Reform than Orthodox, and I never heard of this type of reincarnation. I believe that we are all supposed to be bodily reincarnated at the end of time, which is the reason for opposition to autopsies and tattoos. You don’t want to be reincarnated chopped into little pieces, after all.
My impression was that when you die you are dead until this reincarnation, except for the few prophets who were brought into heaven - though in practice Christian ideas of heaven (though not hell) have infiltrated into common belief.
Another one who’s not heard of any mainstream Jewish thought regarding reincarnation - since we don’t know that there’s anything after death, we should go about our lives assuming there’s no afterlife.
I honestly can’t see the appeal for you of practicing magical thinking. Why not also go in for astrology, palm reading, flat-earthism, or any pretend mysticism thought up by science-ignorant people?