Questioning a madman's doctrine (attn: Jewish Dopers)

[Derleth]

Rabbi Ovadia Yousef of the ultraconservative Israeli Shas party recently said that the victims of the Holocaust were reincarnated sinners trying to atone. I have a question about that statement: Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation? This guy is not a liberal by any means. He called the Arabs ‘snakes’ at the same time when commenting on the peace process. So, what’s the deal here? Has old Yousef gone Hindu or just completely insane? Is there anything in the Jewish faith to support his claim?

[Kyla]

Ovadia Yosef is crazy. Crazy, crazy, crazy! Jews don’t believe in reincarnation, Rav Ovadia is off his rocker. Seriously. I cannot emphasize how bonkers this guy is.

There are two chief rabbis in Israel, the chief Sephardi rabbi and the chief Ashkenazi rabbi. The reason for this is that the two groups have different rites, etc. Anyway, it used to be a lifelong post, until Rav Ovadia became the chief Sephardi rabbi. Then the government made it a time-limited post just to get rid of him!

I’m sure Alessan, whom I think said he voted Shinui, can give you more examples of his lack of sanity. (Shinui’s platform is secular to the point of being anti-religion.)

[Junior_Spaceman]

The Rabbi has since said that he was incorrectly quoted, and that he meant that the Holocaust martyrs were SAINTS not SINNERS, but regardless, reincarnation is not alien to Jewish Belief. I have been told that if any person dies before the age of ten, they are quickly reincarnated, as their purpose in this world could not have been fulfilled. It is not something that is dogma, or has to involve everyone. The following is from a Hasidic FAQ:

***A lot of people have expressed extreme astonishment that Hasidim would believe in things like reincarnation, prophetic dreams, miracles, angels, spiritual healing – ideas which are often labeled as New Age. What can I tell you? For them maybe it’s New Age, but for us it’s ancient history… There are many Hasidic stories about reincarnation and similar topics.
***.

This was from:
http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/hasid1.html

There are more knowledgable posters on this board about Jewish issues than me, and I would be interested on their take on this.

HenrySpencer.

[hawthorne]

My understanding is that he was not misquoted, because his comments were made in a radio broadcast.

Way to go: insult the dead and try to undermine the peace process all in one go.

picmr

[cmkeller]

Derleth and Kyla:

For Openers: It ill behooves you to mock someone whose I deas you simply don’t agree with. I thought this was a forum for civil discussion, not for name-calling.

Derleth:

Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation?

Judaism does believe in reincarnation. It does not believe it is a part of everyone’s life (or, I suppose, lives) as Hindus and Buddhists do, but it does believe that, in certain extraordinary circumstances, it does happen. Clearly Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef believes that most Holocaust martyrs fell into such categories. It is not an insult to imply that someone is the new incarnation of a previously-existing soul; in fact, it’s more likely a compliment, as G-d has decided that this soul is deserving of a second chance.

Kyla:

Anyway, it used to be a lifelong post, until Rav Ovadia became the chief Sephardi rabbi. Then the government made it a time-limited post just to get rid of him!

I do not want to turn this into a “Great Debate.” However, did it occur to you that it’s only his political opponents within the government, and not “the government” (as in your post) who wish to disenfranchise him?

[cmkeller]

I should also add that when he was saying that it’s a good idea to exchange land for peace in order to save Jewish lives, no one was questioning his sanity. But that he should say things that the Israeli left don’t agree with…oh, he must be “Crazy, crazy, crazy!”, eh, Kyla?

Chaim Mattis Keller

[hawthorne]

I don’t think he’s crazy, just that he’s got Shas for brains.

picmr

[IzzyR]

I would like to add to Chaim’s post the point that often things sound different when made in a political context as they do in a religious one. I am not familiar with the context of Rabbi Yosef’s words, but it is likely that he did not intend to be insulting. Two points must be born in mind in this regard.

1. Much of the audience to which he speaks is of oriental background, and to them the holocoust does not have the same degree of emotional connotation as it does for European people. Thus is more possible with them to speak of it in a purely religious sense.

2. Israel is a mostly secular population, and there are alot of people, like Kyla and Alessan, who hate Haredi jews and their leaders. Any statement made by any Haredi leader is apt to be taken out of context and proclaimed to the world as an example of how the Haredim are wacked out lunatics, much as Kyla has done here.

Regarding reincarnation: this was a matter of dispute among medieval Jewish philosophers. Today, most Orthodox Jews do believe in reincarnation. Post such as Kylas, which emphatically state otherwise, only reinforce the ignorance of many who sometimes claim to speak for the Jewish people and religion.

[sdimbert]

Derleth:

Just to earn my sig, I am going to ignore the fracas brewing here and supply the following information regarding the only legitimate question raised.

Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation?

From Frequently Asked Questions and Answers on Soc.Culture.Jewish. (Section 12 - “Jewish Thought”)

WARNING - LONG QUOTE AHEAD

What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven?

In general, and in contrast to some other religions, in day-to-day life Jews don’t pay much attention to questions like this. The focus of Jewish life is living according to G-d’s will as expressed in the Torah. What happens afterwards is up to G-d.

That said, traditional Judaism does address this question. Keep in mind that there are dissenting viewpoints, though this is the dominant one:

A living person consists of both body and soul. Both are complex in structure and this short answer can’t possibly address the details. To summarize briefly, when the body dies, if the person merits it, a small portion of the soul remains with it to keep it connected with the soul’s source, anticipating the general revival of the dead at the time that G-d decrees. Different parts of the remainder of the soul may go to different places. One might be reincarnated into a new body in an attempt to rectify another of its spiritual aspects, or for other purposes. One part might go to a level of Paradise. Another might go to Gehinnom for a period, to remove the sins of that life and prepare it for a future one. Another part might join temporarily with an already living person, to assist it with its rectification and in the process gather more merit. The reassignments of the soul continues until the time that G-d decrees.

Rabbinic afterlife teachings varied in different places and times, and was never synthesized into one coherent philosophy. As such, the different descriptions of the afterlife are not always consistent with each other. This is especially true for the descriptions of “Olam Haba”, the world to come. In some rabbinic works this phrase refers to the messianic era, a physical realm right here on Earth. However, in other works this phrase means Gan Edan, Paradise (in Heaven, so to speak), a purely spiritual realm. At various points in the afterlife journey, the soul is said to encounter:
Hibbut ha-kever, the pains of the grave
Dumah, the angel of silence
The angel of death
The Kaf ha-Kela, the catapult of the soul
Gehenna (purgatory) and Gan Eden (Heaven; Paradise)

A discussion of the classic rabbinic view of the afterlife, including these topics and more, can be found in an essay by Rabbi Zalman Schacter Shalomi: “Life in the hereafter: A tour of what’s to come.”

Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literture. It is sometimes translated as “hell”, but Jews must take note that the Christian version of hell is extremely different from the Jewish view of Gehenna. For Christiains, hell is an abode of eternal torment where sinners go, and is also for anyone who does not accept Jesus as their messiah and god. For Jews, gehenna - while certainly a terribly unpleasant place - is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged.

In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are sid to come from this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.

Souls are said to originate in a realm called the ‘guf’ (Avodah Zarah 5a, Nedarim 13b, Yevamot 62a), from which they descend to the earthly real to animate human bodies. After death, these souls return to the otzar, or tzror ha-hayyim. (Shabbat 152a; Pesikta Rabbati 2:3)

According to the Kabbalah [Jewish mysticism] every human has at least one element in their soul; with the proper study a person can eventually develop two higher levels of the soul. A common way of explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:

Nefesh - the lower part, or animal part, of the soul. Is linked to instincts and bodily cravings.
Ruach - the middle soul, the spirit. It contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.

Neshamah - the higher soul, or super-soul. This separates man from all other lifeforms. It is related to the intellect, and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. It allows one to have some awareness of the existence and presence of God.
The “Raaya Meheimna,” a later addition to the Zohar, posits that there are in fact two more parts of the human soul, the chayyah and yehidah. These parts were considered to represent the sublimest levels of intuitive cognition, and were only within the grasp of very few individuals.

The chayyah - The part of the soul that allows one to have an awareness of the divine life force itself.
Yehidad - the highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve as full a union with God as is possible.
According to the Zohar, after death each aspect of the soul undergoes a different experience on the afterlife journey. The lower levels of the soul are purified and purged of physical and emotional attachments, while the higher levels experience transcendental bliss. The nefesh temporarilly remains with the body in the grave, undergoing the Hibbut Ha-Kever, the suffering of the grave. Simulataneously, the Ruach experiences Gehenna for 12 months. "Gehenna is concieved of as a purification process in which the psychic remnants from the previous life are purged and transformed. This purgation process lasts only tweleve months and is tormentingly painful in direct proportion to each individual’s lived life experience. [Simcha Paull-Rapahel ] After leaving Gehenna, the ruah then permanently enters the Lower Gan Eden.

After death the Neshama, since it not subject to being tainted by sin, goes to Gan Eden Elyon, the Upper Gan Eden, where it experiences divine reward and bliss. The hayyah and yehidah also return to Upper Gan Eden immediately after death, and become as one with God as is possible. "Those who have awakened these dimensions of their being are able to perceive the infinite grandeur of the divine realms, to enter the everflowing celestial stream - described by the Zoha as the “bundle of life”. [Paull-Rapahel]

More information is available on the JewFaq. Of course, there is much, much more still, but this post is long enough.

[SuaSponte]

the three-part description of the soul from the Kabbalah sounds remarkably like the id, ego, and superego of Freudian mythology, er, theory. Anyone know if Freud was influenced by the Kabbalah?
Sua

[jmullaney]

Really??? Man, Judaism sounds more and more like Scientology the more I learn about it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sdimbert *
From Frequently Asked Questions and Answers on Soc.Culture.Jewish. (Section 12 - “Jewish Thought”)

…
For Christiains, hell is an abode of eternal torment where sinners go, and is also for anyone who does not accept Jesus as their messiah and god. …**

I just wanted to point out that ,though a few sects believe that, Hell is a place of separation from God according to most of Christianity. And I think Jesus makes perfectly clear that to get “into heaven” one only need keep the ten commandments – admittedly his interpretation of them, and repent and atone for those you have broken. So, would someone please ask the maintainer of that FAQ to keep the Christian bashing to a minimum please?

[sdimbert]

*Originally posted by jmullaney *
**…would someone please ask the maintainer of that FAQ to keep the Christian bashing to a minimum please?
**

Good idea!

I nominate you.

His name is Daniel Faigin and here is his email address.

PS - I got that information from the bottom of the page to which I linked earlier.

[jmullaney]

All done. Thanks sdimbert.

[Derleth]

Hey, thanks all. I read one (admittedly small) article on the subject of Rabbi Yousef which made him out to be a nutcase trying to bash Holocaust victims and the peace process in one go. I have had a cursory study into Judaism (I know it’s one of the three Middle Eastern Abrahamic faiths, history of persecution, chosen people, etc.) but I never gave much thought to the Jewish conception of the afterlife (being an atheist). I never thought it was so interesting. Heck, it sure beats the ‘everlasting hellfires and brimstone and torture…’ of your average Protestant faith.

I just wanted to point out that ,though a few sects believe that, Hell is a place of separation from God according to most of Christianity. And I think Jesus makes perfectly clear that to get “into heaven” one only need keep the ten commandments – admittedly his interpretation of them, and repent and atone for those you have broken.

Ask a Southern Baptist. To avoid the 'eternal torture…'etc. of Hell in the Southern Baptist faith one must not only accept Jesus Christ as your ‘personal Lord and Savior’, you must (in many groups) become a ‘born-again’ Christian by undergoing a second Baptismal and stating that you have a ‘personal relationship with God’. None of this ‘put apart from Him’ stuff as the definition of Hell, either. The SB Hell is a place of firey torment and very vigorous torture. You know, the kind of hell Jerry Falwell gets off on. So to correct you: One of the largest sects of American Protestantism has beliefs that diametrically oppose what you state. (How do I know? 7 years in Southeast Missouri with some ‘born-again’ friends.)

[jmullaney]

*Originally posted by Derleth *
So to correct you: One of the largest sects of American Protestantism has beliefs that diametrically oppose what you state.

Hey, I notified the FAQ owner of his error. If he would like to preface his remarks with the statement that this is a common belief among some American Protestants, fine, but the majority of Christians (the one billion Roman Catholics alone) do not share this johny-come-lately belief system, and I think it is misleading to portray Christian belief otherwise when this has not been historically or ever the majority opinion. I mean, there are probably wacko Jews who think holocaust victims were reincarnated sinners too (really??), but I wouldn’t explain Judaism that way in a Christian FAQ if I knew better.

but don’t take my word for it

[Derleth]

I only stated exactly what I stated: One of the largest sects of American Protestantism has beliefs that diametrically oppose your statements. I made no statements about most Christians. I’m just saying that a very influential group has very different beliefs that are minimized at your own risk. I’m glad we could clear that up.

[manhattan]

Sheesh, how did I miss this one. Sorry about that.

Off to Great Debates.

[Derleth]

Sorry about the extra work, manny. This honestly started off as a GQ (I wanted some info on Jewish dogma). I suppose it just got hijacked (by me). Well, if nothing else the current forum will allow all of us to expand upon our positions.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

yes, my Church holds that if you go to Hell, you are not tormented, per se (very unpleasant, joyless, G-dless, dark, cold, gloomy), but must stay there until you truly repent. A certain select few, such as those who force others to sin, suffer the 'fire" ( but that appears in Jewish OT, also), and for these (eg Hitler), the punishment may semm 'eternal" indeed. In order to get to our Heaven, you must “accept JC”
or repent and accept. There may be “purgatory” for those who have sinned greatly, but “accepted”, but since it will be full of hope, it won’t be so bad. Those that have their own faith, and are virtuous, will go to their own “reward”. It is argued whether observant Jews go to “our” heaven, or one much like it “next door” so to speak. But, only the “faithless” the “unrepentant sinners” and such go to hell.

Some of us, who have not been able to “complete” their journey, could be re-incarnated for a second chance. This is debated, also.

[Kyla]

I’m sorry if I offended you. I don’t hate haredim, although I have had bad experiences with some. I have also met absolutely wonderful dati’im, truly lovely people. I also don’t hate Rav Ovadia. I just question his sanity. He acts like he’s some kind of rock star, in his black and gold and sunglasses, he goes on TV during the elections and makes all sorts of bizarre statements, he thinks it’s perfectly fine to run a corrupt political party (not that HE ran the party, but he defended Aryeh Deri’s running of Shas, and accused the Israeli courts of some kind of anti-Mizrachi conspiracy). I don’t think Rav Ovadia is crazy because I don’t agree with him - heck, I don’t agree with Tommy Lapid, either - I think he’s crazy because I honestly think he is mentally disturbed and that when he says that the Jews who were killed in the Shoah were reincarnations of sinners, he shouldn’t be taken seriously, and that viewpoint should not be seen as representative of any significant faction in Israel, including Shas. Wow, run-on sentence. Anyway, Tommy Lapid said something to the effect that people in the world will now think that Israelis are agreeing with Hitler - that Jews died because they deserved to die. And he’s right, this is what makes me scared and unhappy. Plus, Rav Ovadia just completely contradicted what he said yesterday, without retracting his previous statement, so now I have no idea what he thinks.