Shield my eyes! I’m not sposed to be learning Kabbalah until I’m 40!
My grandfather was talking of this yesterday. He is of the Holocaust generation, and lost all of his family save two uncles. Luckily, he was in South Africa by 1933. He has recently moved here from Israel.
He says that observant people who lived through the Holocaust did one of 3 things :
They shut it out of their minds after, and continued with their religious beliefs.
They tried to justify God’s purpose. Seeing the untold horror of the camps and the war, they could not, so they could not continue believing in a just and merciful God.
They tried to justify God’s purpose by reasoning the Holocaust martyrs were reincarnated sinners who were brought back to atone. Being martyred for Judaism is preferred in some situations in Judaism. I can’t remember the exact rules, but maybe some of the more Orthodox Jews here can elaborate.
He says view 3) was accepted amongst a segment of Holocaust survivors, so it is not entirely unusual that Shas is accepting this. I don’t think Ovaida is more off the deep end, corrupt, or holy for that matter than the rest of the power base in Israel.
Edwino, point taken. I’m not sure if this is really meaningful, but I’d like to point out that Rav Ovadia didn’t actually live through the Holocaust. He was born in Baghdad, and while I’m sure being a Jew in Iraq wasn’t all fun and games, he did manage to live through the experience. The article I read today about his new contradiction mentioned the rift between Ashkenazim and Sephardim in Israel. I don’t think it is well known how deep this rift is, but I am sure that many Ashkenazim will see this as a Mizrachi rabbi being disrespectful of Ashkenazi history. Of course, on the other side, I have read that the Holocaust is ingrained in the Israeli psyche so deeply that Sephardim/Mizrachim feel it is a defining part of their history, although they did not personally experience it. So maybe my point is moot anyway, and I’m not going to take sides on this, but I’m sure that many will. Me, I give up. I can’t say anything without offending someone.
Offence is not the point. I was referring to ther statements that you made here. (bolding added)
It is important for people to bear in mind that due to your “personal bias” and that of Alessan and others of the same type, your (and their) judgement regarding the sanity of Rabbi Yosef and the context of his words is open to question.
Sort of. It is a democracy, but you can’t vote unless you are both an ethnic and religious Jew (sorry, Palestine!). I don’t know what the poli sci world would call that.
I win the race to correct this!! You do not have the automatic right of citizenship (Right of Return) unless you are a religious Jew. “Ethnic” Judaism is not at issue - converts can become citizens (although there is an ongoing fight about those converted by Conservative or Reform rabbis).
Furthermore, citizens of Israel who are not Jewish, including the 1/6th of the population who are Arabs, can vote. There are, IIRC, 6 Arab members of the Knesset.
We Ashkenazim are not used to seeing such ostentation, especially not from our Rabbis…but Eastern communities have always been much more colorful, and such finery was common (in communities that could afford it) for holders of honored positions, such as the Rabbi. Westerners have a much more subdued esthetic sense. As for the sunglasses, it’s my understanding that he has some sort of problem with his eyes.
I’m noticing this misinterpretation amongst Holocaust survivors…Orthodox as well as secular. However, it is wrong to think that this implies he’s “justifiying the Holocaust.” While we Orthodox Jews believe that no one dies unless he’s deserving of death (either in his current life or in a previous incarnation…enough other posters have testified to the fact that reincarnation is not alien to Judaic belief), we also believe that no murderer can ever use this to justify his actions. After all, G-d has many messengers which can bring about death, and it is a human being’s obligation to avoid murder.
It is clear that the Holocaust is an extremely open wound to many, and that this statement of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s touched some sort of raw nerve. However, the actual statements were neither insulting of Holocaust victims nor justifying of the Holocaust itself.
Libertarian:
No. Israel is a democracy in all matters except, matters of personal status, i.e., marriage, divorce. Those matters are run by the governmentally-recognized religious authority of whichever religion a citizen is registered as belonging to. There are separate authorities set up for Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc.
As for jmullaney’s statement, that’s just plain wrong. Any citizen of Israel can vote and/or hold public office.
You are correct. What I meant to say is that (Orthodox) Jewish belief says that “no one dies in an unusual manner unless he is deserving of death.” As you correctly pointed out, everyone dies eventually.
While the Catholic Church and mainline Protestant churches may have of late de-emphasized, redefined, or abandoned the notion of eternal damnation, the doctrine of the eternal torment of the lost in hell has in fact historically been the teaching of both the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches, and they have only recently moved away from it. For example, the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Hell, while also discussing damnation in terms of separation from God, says that “[t]he poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct.” (The article notes that a minority of theologians have held to different views; it also seems to suggest that such views date back only to the 16th Century or so.) The doctrine of eternal torment also has considerable Biblical support. (See Luke 16:19-31–“red letter verses”, no less–and Revelation 20:10-15, for example). I don’t know what the majority opinion of the world’s 2 billion or so Christians would be if you polled them all right now, but the abandonment of good-old-fashioned hellfire is the “johnny-come-lately” belief, not the other way around. Perhaps you should retract or at least modify whatever notification you sent to the owner of that FAQ.
Sorry, jummlaney, but you’re wrong again. There are plenty of Arab Israelis who have full citizenship rights (including voting rights) in Israel. As proof, there are several Arab members of the Kenesset.
OK, you are right. Wishful thinking from an atheist. It is a place of eternal fire and eternal torment but the primary suffering is separation from God.
No, but what is a johnny-come-lately belief is that belief in Jesus as God and Messiah is a requirement, and I guess that is my main objection to the text.
The Catholics teach: “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.”
Don’t mind me… Just dropped by to tell jmullaney he was wrong…
Yer pal,
Satan
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