Shocking parts of jewish religion -- according to Shahak -- Is this true ?

Great Debates
1

Here are some of my thought after reading the link I refer to
-Do they look upon non-jews as some kind of usefull animals they can use for their own purpose ??

-Are there any truth to what the jewist professor Israel Shahak writes in this book ?

-I would like to hear some views about this rather disturbing “information”.

-I would like that some jews here and others can explain some of this !!
Here are the first part of the review:
quote:

Professor Israel Shahak
about
Jewish “Religion”

Jewish History, Jewish Religion
The Weight of Three Thousand Years
Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Notes

Book Review:

When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the peoples of the world in their intense hatred and contempt for all peoples but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews’ religious writings or from a study of the Jews’ behavior toward non-Jews.

Notable among these was the reformer, Martin Luther, who in 1543 wrote in “Von den Juden und Ihren Lugen”:

"Does not their Talmud say, and do not their rabbis write, that it is no sin to kill if a Jew kills a heathen, but it is a sin if he kills a brother in Israel? It is no sin if he does not keep his oath to a heathen. Therefore, to steal and rob, as they do with their usury, from a heathen is a divine service. For they hold that they cannot be too hard on us nor sin against us, because they are of the noble blood and circumcised saints; we, however, are cursed goyim. And they are the masters of the world, and we are their servants, yea, their cattle…
[/quote]

the rest is here (the whole link):
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis.htm
This sucject fits better inn here. I tried to post this thread in the pit, but it was closed after 18-20 replies because the replies was of too much of an immature nature.
I suggest that these and similar members don’t repeat this activety just to get this thread closed. You don’t fool me twice!
Moderator’s Notes: I’ve deleted the major portion of your copyright post. It was just too much. Don’t do this again.
[Edited by UncleBeer on 08-24-2001 at 07:31 AM]

2

I believe Coventry is very nice this time of year. Bu-bye.

3

I would just like to point out that on other pages of your weblink it states, among other things, that Jews are trying to “be in the actual process of providing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which if not arrested, would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible.”

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/witness1.htm

On that same page is praises Hitler, says that Judaism is essentailly communism, It also says that Hitler was “not anti-Semitic, but anti-Talmudic.”

That same page also engages in Holocaust downplaying/denial, twists the numbers of Jews who were in Europe at that time, says that WWII was a merry time for all under Hitler’s power, calls Hitler a moderate, and basically says that he wasn’t a bad guy at all.

This page http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/priest.htm states, among other things, that Catholics believe in a “wafer-god” and are going to burn for their worshipping of graven images.

On their FAQ http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/abc.htm they say that Christians are those “born of Adam’s race.”

One can only specuate what that means.

They’ve also got a great conspiracy section http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/weekdx.htm wherin they invoke members of secret societies, the Illuminati, Rhodes Scholars,

This comes from a half-hour examination of the site. I’m sure that there’s more gems there, but one can only examine so much of this before the ears start to bleed.

I don’t know enough about what that professor wrote to answer it (I suspect some of the Jewish dopers will be along shortly) but I’m thinking that it’s a bunch of anti-semitic claptrap.

If you want a reasonable debate you might want to find a cite that isn’t so farfetched, hateful, and smacking of Nazis. Such a biased reference does not lend itself to debate, nor does it cast any great light on your motives in posting it.

4

I forgot this gem of a link, which explains why the Holocaust did not in fact happen.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

Explain yourself, please.

5

Are you saying this is a quote from the book? Do you have a page number for me? (you said in the pit thread that you had not read the book yet)

Or is this a quote from the biblebelievers.nimrod?

6

I’m not religious nor am I very nationalistic.
Shahak aren’t fake he’s a Israely jew.

Here is some link for you abour Shahak:
http://www.mideastmiscellany.org/Israel%20Shahak%20Dead.htm

http://www.miftah.org/articles/sharma.htm
…

7

Not a quote from the book.
It’s some thought I had after reading some of Shahaks work.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Baltazar *
**
I’m not religious nor am I very nationalistic.
Shahak aren’t fake he’s a Israely jew. **

You didn’t answer me. Who Shahak is doesn’t matter in the context of my post- I was questioning if the webpage was any more than Nazi babble. If you would care to address this, we will all be waiting with bated breath.

Incidentally, him being a Jew doesn’t in any way make him immune from anti-Semitism. Self-hatred is a common enough phenomenon.

It would also be interesting to know why you believe what he is saying and if you have cites for it.

9

I base my thoughts on what Shahak writes, and not on any extreme religious or nationalistic sites or viewpoints. I was not born yesterday.
Here are some links about Shahak:
http://www.mideastmiscellany.org/Israel%20Shahak%20Dead.htm

http://www.miftah.org/articles/sharma.htm

10

I read them the first time, thanks.

  1. You still have not answered to the fact that the webpage is hateful claptrap.

  2. You not being religious or nationalistic matters how in regards to this point?

  3. I have heard of Shahak before. No religion or institution should be immune from criticism, but it seems like this webpage is using his words to further their Nazi views. Any thoughts on that?

  4. The way you are presenting this seems as if you expect us all to run away hating the dirty Jews. Interesting. One can only speculate what the owners of this webpage would do to minorities were they in charge of a country.

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by andygirl *
**

It fits very well according to my observations the last 10-12 years.

I think Shahak writes the truth, but I also thinks he exaggerates. (I haven’t read the whole book though).
I must also say that I think his description fits first and foremost on the more nationalistic and extremistic parts of jews and Israelis. Perhaps most where orthodoxy- and zionistic ideology meet. The problem is that this is a very effective group with a lot of power.

I can say this to you if you are questioning my motives:
I am not a neo-nazi and I do not denie that 5-6 million jews was killed during ww2.
.

12

The technical term for those comments is “rabid anti-semitism.” For the record, such comments are untrue, perioid. Bold, outrageous, ridiculous lies and sheer propaganda.

Alas, they are not new lies. They go back as far as Paul, who was angered at being rejected by the Jews and said some very, um, un-Christian things about them.

The essence of very early Christianity was to try to supplant Judaism, or be an evolution from Judaism. When that failed, the thought emerged that Judaism was “failed” and the Jews were “evil” so that the new religion could replace it. (Hard to argue that you worship the Messiah of the Jews, but the Jews don’t worship him, unless you argue that the Jews are misguided, evil, depraved.)

So the lies are very old, and, amazingly, still effective and still believed (though, thank God, only by the lunatic fringe.) They were used as the justification of seizing ewish property, rounding up Jews in ghettos, robbing and murdering Jews. It’s a bizarre reversal, but the people who espouse those arguments try to make the Jews into “sub-humans” (while claiming that it is the Jews who view Christians as “useful animals.”)

Sorry, bud, it ain’t the Jews who view others as sub-human, it’s the vicious antisemites and racists who do that.

It is certainly true that there have been Jews who are every bit as lunatic as Christians. There was indeed a rabbinic statement that the Biblical laws did not apply to non-Jews, but it was never OK to murder non-Jews. The distinctions were more subtle – for example, non-Jews living amidst Jews were not required to follow the Jewish laws of Sabbath, for example. The worst example is the question of whether one could violate religious rules to save a life, for which (to their eternal shame) early rulings were different if the life being saved was Jewish or not.

However, if we want to go that route, we might also bring up the Christian notion that it’s OK to kill heretics and nonbelievers (like Aztecs, Incas, Jews, Protestants, etc.). Those notions were imbedded in Christian practice for centuries.

In any case, the notion that Judaism is “malevolent” while Christianity is “benevolent” is obvious propoganda.

13

Dunno why I’m bothering replying after the pit thread or assorted other posts of the OPer, but:

Jeez, Baltazar, you’re really quite a broken record, aren’t you.

  1. It doesn’t matter that Shahak was Jewish. There are plenty of secular Jews in Israel who are anti-Orthodox. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they think Jews are all evil. Nor does it mean that they would particularly be more comfortable with fundamentalism of any flavor (namely Muslim and Christian).
  2. The web site which your OP is based on also contains misinformation about the Holocaust and anti-Catholic diatribe. Your OP information is therefore from a shoddy source. Would you care to provide additional cites from somewhere other than biblebelievers? From somebody (other than Shahak) who actually knows something about Judaism.
  3. Do you care to explain your opinion? Is it only based on this one source? Have you ever met any Jews? Have they treated you poorly? Have you been maligned by Jews?
14

It occurs to me that my last statements might be taken as condemning Catholicism, and I hasten to add that, for centuries, the Protestants thought it was perfectly OK to murder Catholics, too.

15

I feel that I would be remiss if I did not comment on this issue.

It is impossible to fully explain the exact nature of Talmudic expression and organization to someone who has not studied in extensively. In general, it is somewhat loosely organized, with something of a tendency to teach by example and derive the principles from them, And it is very given to metaphor, particularly when applying Biblical phrases to situations - often these are not intended to serve as literal descriptions, but rather some aspect or characteristic, or to make some point.

The Talmud is very un-PC, in terms of expressing opinions about groups of people which might be regarded as offensive by today’s standards. These cut both ways and apply to both Gentiles and Jews (e.g. the Talmudic statement “most thieves are Jews”). There are also many positive statements about both groups. The Talmud was intended for an audience that understood the context and mode of expression in which it was written.

So the important issue is not whether this or that quote is fabricated, but rather whether the overall picture presented in the Talmud is that suggested by Shahak, or whether he mined the Talmud for quotes that supported his thesis (he appears to have been very troubled by Zionism)? Perhaps more to the point - do Jews (particularly religious ones) actually go about with these attitudes about Gentiles?

I could personally answer these questions from my own experience. But this would be useless. I might just be another one of those Jews faking out the Gentiles about the Real Inner Secret. So I would suggest that people base their judgement on their own observations of people they know. Do they seem to be bigoted (more than any other group)? Is it likely (or possible) that a large group of people could keep as a secret their contempt for others? I don’t think so. YMMV.

;j

16

Which are?

What does he write the truth about and what is he exaggerating? We need more details here. Specific quotes and books would be nice- he’s written quite a few.

Much like… say, fundamentalists in America?

You saying that doesn’t mean a thing. I can say that I’m Bill Gates. I can affirm and swear up and down that I own Microsoft. That doesn’t make it true. And you saying “but it is true” isn’t a good answer.

What you have to understand is that your arguement cannot be divorced from the cites you use. You are using a biased and hate-filled webpage as a primary source of information, and you have to answer to that or be faced with being called an anti-semite.

Find something about the guy that doesn’t involve people screaming about the evil Jews and Praise Jesus and then you might get a real debate.

17

Whew. I was waiting for the calvary to arrive.

18

Ah, so you’re 12 years old then. That would put you in the 5th, 6th, or 7th grade.

Here’s a hint: Don’t believe everything you read.

Another hint: Not everything in the Bible is literally true.

And yet another: Not every website that has the word “Bible” in its title is literally true.

These gems were gleaned from my 42 years of observation.

Now take your racist and bigoted tush elswhere.

19

You’ve done this already trollboy. The writer of that ‘book-report’ has bit of an agenda. How about going back to the source material to make your case, or do you prefer to rely on someone else’s interpretation? I’m still waiting for you to cough up anything that corroborates these allegations. If Jews exploit gentiles “as some kind of usefull animals they can use for their own purpose”, then surely you can cite some ways in which they do this. I’ll wait.

20

::sdimbert imitates Jon Stewart rubbing his eyes and staring at the camera in mock surprise::

Huuuuh?!?

I thought there was something wrong with the Board… wasn’t this Thread already tossed into the Pit then locked by Tuba?

Do you all realize that Baltazar is quoting an uncredited Book Review?!

[Magic Patience Hat ON]

Baltazar, this should not be difficult to understand. In this Forum, we debate issues. The way this is done is by presenting propositions and supporting them with credible sources.

Your OP does not do this. Instead, you’ve posted some hateful, unsupported lies and asked the rest of us to dispute them. That’s simply not the way this works.

Here’s an illustration. Over at this site, a bunch of yo-yos propose that:

Now, I could post that silliness here and ask everyone to “explain” it to me. But, if someone like andygirl pointed me to NASA or space.com or some other credible source, I would have to either 1) terminate the debate or 2) find another source, equally credible to her’s that disputed her position and supported mine.

You’ve been accused here (and elsewhere) of supporting an untenable anti-Semitic position. If you want us to believe that you’re anything more than a troubled misanthrope, you’re going to need to do better than simply spouting propaganda and denying non-existent ad-hominem attacks.

[Magic Patience Han OFF]